USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess • Hacker News Board

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#591

Post by jsjohnst » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 2:31 AM UTC

Gibbon1 wrote: post #469

bleepblorp wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. USB-PD is in a twilight zone where it can deliver enough power to cause safety risks but, due to its low voltage, is not subject to the level of regulatory scrutiny that other electrical products receive. To date, the USB-IF's approach to safety and interoperability does not adequately protect consumers. USB-PD devices should not be incompatible to the point of damage but USB-IF has been unable to ensure this by…

Yeah anything that can drop 100W into a device absolutely needs to be under regulatory compliance.

100W really isn’t that much power comparatively speaking to things that are currently regulated. The issue is the specific circumstances (tiny copper traces feeding into SMT components), not the fact that it’s 100W of power alone.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#592

Post by kalleboo » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 3:17 AM UTC

willis936 wrote: post #569

numpad0 wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like Gen 1 Switch hardware was designed too early in USB-C era. It’ll probably be fixed in future generations but Nintendo decided not to make design changes for Gen 1 and Gen 2 Switch to fully comply with USB-C PD specs.

The timeline here doesn’t jive. The Pixel C came out in 2015 with a USB-C port using the same SoC as the Switch (2017). Nintendo’s non-compliance is intentional.

Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence. Nintendo has a long history of proprietary plugs, if they wanted to make something proprietary, they would have just done it and nobody would bat an eye, they wouldn't bother making a slightly buggy USB-C implementation.

Do you also think that the Raspberry Pi 4 USB-C incompatibility is intentional? That came out waaay later

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#593

Post by lmm » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 3:22 AM UTC

Dahoon wrote: post #528

pwinnski wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Universality" that involves many people finding that cables that look identical don't actually work the same way. Interesting definition there. Universality of physical plug, I guess?

I'm not sure I see how this is an interesting definition. How is it different from HDMI or LAN cables? There the cables also define capability so "cables that look identical don't actually work the same way".

> How is it different from HDMI or LAN cables? There the cables also define capability so "cables that look identical don't actually work the same way".

In theory yes. In practice most of the cables are good enough for most users - e.g. in a home LAN cables are probably 10m at most, so even a cat5 cable can probably give people a connection that's as fast as their internet uplink. If the problems with USB-C are common enough to impact normal users (and I think lack of thunderbolt falls into that category) then that's a major difference in practice.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#594

Post by kalleboo » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 3:26 AM UTC

inopinatus wrote: post #564

Latty wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those problems are hardly unique to USB-C. With Micro-USB I had charging cables that didn't have data lines in them, Kindle power adaptors that didn't offer enough output for my phone to charge off, and non-standard devices that didn't follow the spec and only worked with certain stuff. In my experience, it works well enough I've actively only been buying USB-C stuff where it is at all possible to do so for a while n…

This is not much harder the the issue of 8P8C connectors, which some (incorrectly) call RJ45. Depending on cable configuration, pinout, wall plate and structured wiring system, that 8P8C might be usable (or not) for multiple different types of data networking, from the assorted ethernet speeds (some of which may successfully autonegotiate, but not all) to E1 to token ring, or for a serial console, or delivering power…

My UPS uses 8P8C for it's USB port! I can't imagine how many cents they saved over using a USB B port (but I do know that I sure as hell don't want to lose that weird RJ45 to USB cable, who knows if the pinout matches whatever cable I can find on amazon)

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#595

Post by kalleboo » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 3:30 AM UTC

tpxl wrote: post #219

leetcrew wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean you can expect whatever you want. what I'm saying is the beautiful past where all USB cables were perfectly interchangeable never existed. in the last generation we had power-only cables, data-only (although this is out of spec, I believe), and various out of spec fast charging implementations. if you pick up a random usb charging block and micro-usb cable, there was never any guarantee that it would transfer…

Those cables were distinct upon physical inspection (missing pins), which USB C cables are not.

No they're not.

I just grabbed a power-only microUSB cable out of my cable box (it came with a microUSB-powered soap dispenser!), and it has all the pins, but only the power pins are actually wired.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#596

Post by m463 » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 3:42 AM UTC

jeremymcanally wrote: post #4

Really? I find it to be a game changer for me. The fact that my laptop, Switch, iPad, and several other devices can all share a charge has made my life much easier. I can just sprinkle a few of them throughout the house and never be without power. Before it was always a hunt to find a cable, or I had to be in [x] room to charge [y] device because that's where the charger lived. Plus, I can charge my MacBook on either…

that is just the physical properties of the cabling. basically just power.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#597

Post by kalleboo » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 3:51 AM UTC

jk700 wrote: post #269

sq_ wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say that they're in the wrong, but I would expect people to have some expectations about the quality, durability, and capabilities of a super cheap cable. Overall, I don't think it's entirely unfair to expect people to pay $10-15 for a quality cable, especially since these modern cables are often expected to carry significant amounts of power.

No, $10 for a cable with significant amount of power is unreasonable. If you ever dealt with some power cables, you'd know that 1 meter of the highest quality copper power cable for continuous delivery of say 15 amps (3 x 1.5 mm^2) shouldn't cost more than $0.6. And that's enough for 300 watts of power given 20 volts. But you probably will never see that much copper in a USB-C cable, at best you'll see third of that…

$1 for the 2m of cable, another $1 for plugs, $1 for manufacturing costs/packaging/shipping = $3. This results in a market price of $10 (30% goes to the retailer [amazon FBA fees etc], 30% goes to the manufacturer and these have to cover salaries, office space, tax, etc etc)

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#598

Post by kalleboo » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 3:56 AM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #81

jeremymcanally wrote: post #4

Really? I find it to be a game changer for me. The fact that my laptop, Switch, iPad, and several other devices can all share a charge has made my life much easier. I can just sprinkle a few of them throughout the house and never be without power. Before it was always a hunt to find a cable, or I had to be in [x] room to charge [y] device because that's where the charger lived. Plus, I can charge my MacBook on either…

> Plus, I can charge my MacBook on either side, so that's basically life changing on its own. Yeah, be careful with that - for some MacBook Pro models charging from the left side will cause overheating and CPU throttling issues.

I had the same issue on my old MagSafe MBP though, and there you don't even have the option of charging on the right to work around the problem

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#599

Post by kalleboo » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 3:57 AM UTC

spacedcowboy wrote: post #274

falcolas wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't heard of any change; my own setup is on the right. I will say that the corner of my computer where power is plugged in is uncomfortably hot.

Is it closed ? Because I've had my MBP plugged in for the last 6 months, driving 2 external 4K displays on one side, power-in on the other, and an OWC 10Gigabit dock in the last port. It's cool to touch, but I have the lid open (I use the LCD as the third display). I've read of people saying it gets hot when the lid is closed...

If it's always plugged in, then you're not charging the battery and there is less heat generated. I only have issues when it's charging the battery (maybe the battery controller is over there?)

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#600

Post by kalleboo » Fri, Oct 02, 2020, 4:01 AM UTC

markstos wrote: post #510

jeremymcanally wrote: post #4

Really? I find it to be a game changer for me. The fact that my laptop, Switch, iPad, and several other devices can all share a charge has made my life much easier. I can just sprinkle a few of them throughout the house and never be without power. Before it was always a hunt to find a cable, or I had to be in [x] room to charge [y] device because that's where the charger lived. Plus, I can charge my MacBook on either…

The mess isn't about you, it's about the rest of us. Old USB printer cables have a "USB-A" end that goes into your computer and the USB-B end for the printer. You can't mess that up. I've recently handled multiple support calls from a family member due to USB-C confusion. I have to explain "This USB port is only for power, this USB port is for power and data. And don't try to try use HDMI through your USB hub because…

I have an external IDE/SATA hard disk dock that has a USB A port on it... and comes with a USB A to A cable. It's absolutely insane.

Stupid manufacturers will do stupid things with any standard. Nobody should be making a laptop with one USB C port that's power only and one that's power and data.