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How To Be An Anti-Casteist

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Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had an interim manager who did this subtly. It wasn't hard for us to catch on after some time, we brought it up to HR and he was disciplined as far as I know, and soon left the company, not sure on what terms. It's absolutely not okay to discriminate candidates by something like caste, or social status. It's like if your lead said she was trying to determine if they were an inferior race.

It's absolutely not okay to discriminate candidates by something like caste, or social status Caste no, social status? Absolutely, happens all the time. It’s very easy to proxy social status based on interests, hobbies, mannerisms, etc. Those that don’t pass the sniff test, are deemed “bad culture fits”.

So are you just saying it's already common, or that you are in support of social status profiling?

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#92
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to understand how marriage is anything but a justifiably personal preference. Jobs are a different story - you can't prefer one race/ethnicity/caste over the other for obvious reasons. Marriage on the other hand is very personal - it would be ridiculous to expect people to marry into other races/castes/ethnicities as the norm - it never happens that way in any part of the world no matter how advanced - people…

The problem with Indian castes being that caste ends up triumphing over personal preference. I personally know a couple of friends who were deeply in love but couldn't marry each other due to caste constraints enforced by their families. And it wasn't an economic issue either. The guy in question lives in SF and the girl was married off to some poor bloke from her caste.

> caste constraints enforced by their families.

But you would think with the breaking / separation of family system to due immigration, opportunities and general cultural shift it would be a lot harder for a family to marry off their daughter to someone else against her preferences? I mean surely if she wanted she could go away to SF to live with him? Hopefully violence wasn't involved but the whole parental wish thing worked because of family system, lack of opportunities and culture - so I am sure plenty of things have changed for the good even if it didn't work out in this one case.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#93

After an interview I attended at a fintech company, my Indian team lead straight out said she was trying to figure out the interviewee's cast. I was not familiar with the concept -- so my expression was mostly blank -- but she immediately followed up with "oh, I shouldn't have said that". I took no action, but wasn't sure what to do. After I learned more about it, I started to wonder where I was in this hierarchy. If…

> After an interview I attended at a fintech company, my Indian team lead straight out said she was trying to figure out the interviewee's cast.

Discrimination has many forms.

Some are codified in law (age, race, religion, sex, etc.) and some are informally observed.

When in doubt, I prefer to address perceived discrimination directly with the person thought to be engaging in such nonconfrontationally and in the presence of at least one other coworker. If you choose to do same, document the encounter when it happens along with whom was present and be prepared to escalate to management.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#94

The strict social hierarchical dynamics of Indian culture is damaging to a lot of workplaces. 2nd generation Indians are great. The Indians that are from lower casts or from oppressed groups like Christians or Muslims are really great. But the higher castes are extremely insular, and treat anyone of any race poorly. This might be taboo, but every time I see a situation where there are multiple Indians in a reporting…

[deleted]

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#95
I have structured the post better and would appreciate if people can let me know what's wrong with this comment.

India is struggling hard to get rid of this menace introduced during colonial era. We have reservation in education, government jobs, and politics to bring backwards at par. Almost 50% of seats in education and government jobs falls under this category. Seat are also reserved into politics.

But the the irony of India is that caste as a system was introduced by European. Word caste itself is of Portuguese origin. Here is a quick read.[1]

All mature societies need skill based division of labour. India had Varna based system which meant society needs four classes of people to run smoothly. These weren't hard classes you were enforced in. People changes their classes as they changes profession. For example Rishi Vishmamitra was a born warrior but later on he turned into a academic. Here is a famous shloka from [2]

    जन्मना जायते शूद्रः संस्कारात् द्विज उच्यते |
    वेद–पाठात् भवेत् विप्रः ब्रह्म जानाती ब्राह्मणः |

 Janmana jayate sudrah, samskarat dwij uchchte,

 Veda pathnat bhavet viprah, brahma janati brahmanah
Meaning: In Vedic culture by birth everyone is Sudra(lower caste), by accepting Samskara (Purificatory process) one becomes a Dvija(Twice Born), By study of Veda one becomes Vipra, Knower of Brahman is Brahmana. It means a true brahmin has the divine vision, knowledge and powers.

Sloka means everybody is born a Sudrah. One who follows the right samskaras has a second birth, one who reads the vedas and understands them becomes a wise man and one who realises the brahma or the source of creation becomes a Brahman. Those seven mind born Rishis of Brahma are real Brahmins ancestors- parents of humen.

In brief, all knowledge work was supposed to be handled by academic class Brahmins. Being born in a Brahmins family wasn't enough to get you into academics though. If you became a warrior you will be called kshatriya. Similary business class vaishya, and Shudras class existed to take care of rest of the social functions and creative endeavours. Profession like engineering, arts, temple building, city planning were all done by the 4th class.

I would argue this isn't any different from today. In order to become professor or researcher(Brahmin) you need a qualification. In order to become a soldier you need to join army. Entrepreneurs and business people drive the world of commerce. Similarly rest of the professions exist too.

Colonial Europeans turned this system into rigid caste based system. which slowly changed over to rigid system as society went into preservation mode as noted by dilippkumar in a comment.

India was the only society without slavery as noted by various travellers. Until English colonial forces destroyed it systematically, India had an education system in which major beneficiary were the so called lower caste of today. Here is another short summary with further references.[3]

[1] https://scroll.in/article/882736/caste-system-in-india-has-i...

[2] https://qr.ae/pN4tBC (Skanda Purana Vol.18 Book VI , Nagar Kanda , Chapter 239 , Verse 31-34)

[3] http://www.indianscience.org/essays/DHARAMPALINTRODUCTION(Pa...

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#96

The dialogue here seems foreign to me. Playing a coy game where you realize someone is trying to infer something about you so you dodge the question. It's weird to imagine that people engage in a cultural dance where you need certainty of arbitrary facts before you decide to act like a dick (oversimplified). But it's really weird to see that there's not overt cultural movements to shed this stuff. Trying to hide the…

> weird to see that there's not overt cultural movements to shed this stuff

It takes energy. It brings out aggressive opposition. It may impact people's lives. There needs to be a bigger shift and it can get messy. You can declare yourself free of the stupid discrimination, but then you have to be prepared to be even more publicly discussed and face backlash in private. Most people want to live their lives, not become martyrs.

Also if you say "system X is bad" it's close to certain you're not the person who is at the top of system X. By not identifying yourself, you identify yourself as close to the bottom.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#97

The strict social hierarchical dynamics of Indian culture is damaging to a lot of workplaces. 2nd generation Indians are great. The Indians that are from lower casts or from oppressed groups like Christians or Muslims are really great. But the higher castes are extremely insular, and treat anyone of any race poorly. This might be taboo, but every time I see a situation where there are multiple Indians in a reporting…

I do not doubt that these things happen, and it sounds like you have some interesting anecdotes. I do take exception to the assertions that this always happens, you will be an outcast, that’s the reason, etc. Ties of language and culture are certainly very strong.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#98

The strict social hierarchical dynamics of Indian culture is damaging to a lot of workplaces. 2nd generation Indians are great. The Indians that are from lower casts or from oppressed groups like Christians or Muslims are really great. But the higher castes are extremely insular, and treat anyone of any race poorly. This might be taboo, but every time I see a situation where there are multiple Indians in a reporting…

Yup basically, I’ll never work for an Indian boss. Chinese, Hispanic, white, etc all fine for me.

Uh, this belief sounds extremely prejudiced.

Re: How To Be An Anti-Casteist

#99
The recent major threads on this topic appear to be:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552047

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23697083

Also these, which have dozens of comments but not hundreds:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24555492

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23798922

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24065132

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