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USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

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Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#531

Post by mohaine »

floatingatoll wrote: post #437
blinky1456 wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it matter if you plug 15amp device into a 25amp oulet? Surely It will only use 15amps unless it short circuits?

It matters if it short circuits, yes. (Electricians, I hope I got this right enough to convey the 'why'; I know it won't be perfect.) The outlet plugs specify the circuit breaker limit. Most consumer electronics in the US use a 15amp plug, which can be plugged into a 15amp outlet or a 20amp outlet — but no higher, due to physical incompatibilities in the outlet design. The electronics that use the 15amp or 20amp plug…

This isn't really correct though and gives a false sense of security. The house breakers are sized for the wires in the wall, not the device plugged in. Those should have their own internal fuses to protect themselves.

Most lamp cords are only sized 100ish Watts or ~ 1A with the bulb being the only fuse. If these somehow pulled 15A for any amount of time the wire would quickly get smoking hot but you still plug them into a 15A plug.

Devices are supposed to protect themselves. Most 15A devices will cause fires if they actually pull 15A for any amount of time. If you try to use a a small extension cord on your space heater, you will soon be smelling burnt plastic while never getting over 15A draw. That is part of why these are such a fire hazard.

Alos in the US a 20A socket is designed to allow a 15A plug to work in it, But not the opposite way as that would cause issues in the wall.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#532

Post by setr »

beowulfey wrote: post #383
danhor wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All (or most) of the reports of switches being bricked stem for 3rd party docks, where the dock is at fault and using 9v for signal pins, see https://hackaday.com/2019/08/04/the-not-quite-usb-c-of-ninte...

Whether or not this is the case, Nintendo makes it very clear in their warranty that using an unauthorized charger is not covered. They definitely did not intend for it to be a universal port.

Why would nintendo warranty try to cover scenarios entirely out of their hands? Just because the other guy claims they've produced a usb-c charger doesnt mean they actually did it correctly (which is apparently the case with these docks)

If you shove 9V into a 5V device, bad things will happen, regardless of Nintendo is anti-standard or not

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#533

Post by Dylan16807 »

catblast wrote: post #514
Dylan16807 wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any device that becomes significantly more dangerous when the breaker trips at 25 instead of 20 amps is relying on way too thin of a safety margin and I would consider it a lurking hazard on any circuit.

That is not how safety margins work. Safety margins are meant to give a buffer for unforeseen circumstances, they are not a ticket to just cheat. With this logic... why stop at a 25A breaker (30 in the US)? Why not just plug a 20A device into a 100A breaker, or no breaker at all? No safety margin can account for purposeful circumvention, which is what connecting a 15/20A outlet to a 30A circuit is.

You see no difference between 20 vs. 25 amps and 20 vs. 100?

I didn't say any difference was unacceptable, but a significant difference for 20/25 should not be accepted.

If the danger gets gradually worse for every 5 amps on the fuse, that's fine. Then the excess danger at 25 or 30 amps is only a tiny fraction of the excess danger at 100 amps. Good work.

If the danger has a sudden sharp increase at a certain amperage, then that amperage threshold needs to be further away than a mere 20/25 difference. Or even 20/30.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#534

Post by formerly_proven »

avhon1 wrote: post #499
rubatuga wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't have a cable that transmits video and does not charge. Even when using USB-C for video, e.g. displayport, it negotiates through a USB 2.0 connection which guarantees 5V @ 500mA.

According to the standard, you can't. There is nothing, however, stopping a manufacturer from making USB-C cables with very fine-gauge power conductors[1]: electrons could flow, and a data connection could be negotiated, but resistive losses at high power consumption would cause the voltage to sag below the minimum of 4.40V. Such a cable would not be standards-compliant, since USB-C cables are required to be able to…

> [1] After all, a full-featured cable needs to fit 16 (!) conductors, and the shield, into one flexible cable.

I only have two real USB-C cables (that can do DPoUSB-C and PD, all other cables only do power and USB 2.0), both of them a really stiff, even more so than a thin DisplayPort cable.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#535

Post by cyphar »

beowulfey wrote: post #383
danhor wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All (or most) of the reports of switches being bricked stem for 3rd party docks, where the dock is at fault and using 9v for signal pins, see https://hackaday.com/2019/08/04/the-not-quite-usb-c-of-ninte...

Whether or not this is the case, Nintendo makes it very clear in their warranty that using an unauthorized charger is not covered. They definitely did not intend for it to be a universal port.

And in a year or two I expect that clause will be found to be unreasonable by the ACCC (Australian consumer protection body) and Nintendo will end up getting fined for it.

Their website says that it uses USB-C for charging and the charging port accepts stock USB-C cables, it's not even remotely reasonable to bury within the warranty a statement which says "oh, by the way the device cannot accept USB-C cables -- if you use a made-to-spec cable that fits in the port, no warranty for you!".

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#536

Post by oftenwrong »

sergeykish wrote: post #324
oftenwrong wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For "normal" people like my mother, it is worse. She ended up in a situation recently where something worked with one cable, but not with a different cable. She thought the cable must be broken. I explained the issue to her, and she understands now, but she still has a hard time remembering which cables and adapters to use for the various purposes. She can't just keep them in a drawer all together. She also has troub…

Buy some colored tape or colored cable protectors.

Misses the point, and wouldn't be foolproof. You might be able to send video over a certain cable to a certain monitor when connected directly, but not when connected through a hub.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#537

Post by qwerty456127 »

hobofan wrote: post #509
qwerty456127 wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why use a standard connector then? Why not use a proprietary one? The USB-C connector itself is far from perfect and I can see no reason to use it if actual compatibility is not what you seek.

Because with a standard connector they could use existing cheap suppliers for that part? And apparently one that was too cheap to properly implement the standard.

Why choose the USB-C connector standard then? There are many alternatives which can be cheaper, better and less confusing this way.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#538

Post by bleepblorp »

addicted wrote: post #265
jolux wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Enforce” how?

I can’t imagine the headlines if the USB consortium tried to enforce a restriction on the shapes of products people are allowed to create. Remember when people were mad about Apple patenting rounded corners? This would be as bad.

There's a middle ground between Apple's rounded corner land grab and allowing non-compliant electrical devices that can cause property damage.

Consider the situation with standard NEMA 5-15R receptacles. As far as I'm aware, the design is not legally protected, but any manufacturer who made a '5-15R' receptacle that couldn't carry 15A--or any device manufacturer who decided to re-purpose the pins such that the ground conductor carried 240V--would have legal problems if they brought their product to market.

This is where USB-PD should be: in a situation where physical connector compatibility brings with it enough design assurances that any pairing of legally-available devices won't blow up, catch fire, or burn out. Ideally, any USB-PD device pairing should work, but at the moment the bare minimum needs to be that any device pairing is safe.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#539

Post by tremon »

jeremymcanally wrote: post #97
buzzerbetrayed wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you not read the article? Because your response doesn’t address any of the issues brought up in the article. Mainly that all the usb-c cables you sprinkle across your house might not have the same functionality. And if you plug your switch in to one it might charge it, while another will not.

I did read it, and for my use cases, I don't have issues. I understand others' use cases may not match mine, but this situation seems basically like any other connectivity standard in the history of technology. Except this time, the universality for what most people use it for has actually managed to catch on. :)

Quick check: how many of your USB-C cables can actually carry the 5Gbps (3.1) or 10GBps (3.2) bandwidth? Because I've had to try multiple products, all claiming USB-3 speeds, before I finally found one that delivered more than 480MBps (USB 2.0 speed).

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#540

Post by mikepurvis »

numpad0 wrote: post #434
floatingatoll wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish the same about people who sell adapters for plugging 15A electrical devices into 25A electrical outlets. Sadly, the legal burden is placed exclusively on the buyer (via electrical code).

You can’t “oversupply” electrical current(Amps), only voltages(Volts). Current is drawn and determined by Ohm’s law.

It matters in the case of a malfunctioning device, as others have pointed out. If you're going to have an adapter than a allows a 15A device (which would normally only need to fail safely in the presence of 15A, or perhaps a very brief lighting surge) into a plug that can supply 25 or 30A, the adapter should almost certainly contain its own 15A fuse.

The reverse of this is plugging big loads like power tools or vacuum cleaners into extension cords intended for use with desk lamps, but I think most people understand that that's a bad idea.

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