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USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

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Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#501

Post by samatman »

reader_mode wrote: post #72
philplckthun wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's fine to point out the Thunderbolt mess, or the PD vs non-PD devices (although non-PD is becoming exceedingly rare as far as I can tell at least for "larger" devices), but using the Nintendo Switch seems like a bad example in my opinion, since it explicitly does not follow all USB standards, especially in fact on charging.

Why ? You have the same plug but it's not actually compatible - this to me is a good example of confusion - I would be the first to assume you can charge it with whatever USB-C power cable available and not bother checking the docs.

I'm quite sure someone, somewhere, made a charger and port in the USB-A format, which delivered 12 volts of power without asking.

This is a violation of the USB spec, not a flaw in it. Anyone could deliver mains AC voltage over a USB-C cable, and it would fry just about everything on the market.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#502

Post by freeone3000 »

ses1984 wrote: post #492
falcolas wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have one of the expensive "supports everything" cables (100w charging, Thunderbolt 3 @ 40mbps) then yeah, the same cable will work. I couldn't even find a 10' one on Amazon with a cursory look. Some of the 6' ones were in excess of $70.

Both 100w charging and high speed data transfer are problems that get harder over long distances, and trying to do them both in the same cable requires many non-trivial feats of engineering, quality materials, and manufacturing. No one ever said USBC was going to bring these features to cheap $5 cables you buy in the checkout at the corner bodega.

But the EXISTENCE of those $5 cables with extremely limited capability muddle the entire market. I'd call them counterfeits, except for some reason they're spec compliant!

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#503

Post by billti »

The article mentions Power Delivery being present/not present as a compat issue, but even without Power Delivery, the amount of power a USB-C port can provide is inconsistent. From Wikipedia:

    VBUS and GND provide 5 V up to 900 mA, in accordance with the USB 3.1 specification. A specific USB-C mode may also be entered, where 5 V at either 1.5 A or 3 A is provided.[55] A third alternative is to establish a Power Delivery contract.
I spent hours trying to find how to add a USB-C port to my PC that supports the 15W (5V at 3A) one of my VR devices requires, and about gave up. (You're lucky if most motherboard or add-in card even tell you how much power they can deliver).

I get the desire to make the spec flexible so it can be simple/cheap when the extra speed & juice isn't needed, but it is really a confusing mess, and not helpful to consumers who just think "Oh it has a USB-C port. That'll work then".

I believe USB 4 was created to try to reduce this fragmentation and confusion, but not much in the way of implementation yet. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB4)

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#504

Post by cpmsmith »

d1zzy wrote: post #426
coryfklein wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how exactly does one know they have received a "high end" cable or charger? Because it cost enough? Because a website claimed it was "Offishial Ankker CABLE"? I'm with you; as an educated techie I'm confident I can find a setup that works for my devices, but I'm far from the common denominator here. Frankly I'm a little concerned when HN thinks, "Nah this isn't a problem, USB-C is working just fine for me. None o…

> And how exactly does one know they have received a "high end" cable or charger? Because it cost enough? Because a website claimed it was "Offishial Ankker CABLE"? Ensure that whatever peripherals you buy that need high speed connectivity _come_ with the USB-C cables they need. Since the cable is part of the product the manufacturer will ensure they will bundle the cheapest cable that still works for that product as…

> You'd have to do the research to determine which signal do you need to transport over that USB-C cable: is it PD power (up to what wattage/amperage), is it USB2 (how many devices), is it DisplayPort or is it Thunderbolt3.

This is the whole point. Why do we now expect a layperson to "do the research" before they can charge their headphones?

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#505

Post by Dylan16807 »

addicted wrote: post #265
jolux wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Enforce” how?

I can’t imagine the headlines if the USB consortium tried to enforce a restriction on the shapes of products people are allowed to create. Remember when people were mad about Apple patenting rounded corners? This would be as bad.

Round corners happen by coincidence, and Apple wouldn't let you use round corners even if you met their spec.

Someone making a port the exact size and shape of a USB-C port (within tolerances) is doing it for the purpose of being compatible, and telling them to meet the (non-onerous) spec to be allowed would not get nasty headlines.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#506

Post by ziml77 »

Let's not pretend that this is some new issue that has arisen from USB-C. There were plenty of identical connectors (or ones that would fit together at least) in the past that were absolutely incompatible to the point of risking frying your electronics. At least with USB-C, if a capability can't be matched between the connected devices and the cable, it just doesn't work. Nothing will go up in a puff of smoke.

And for anyone complaining about needing different chargers for your phone and laptop, how is that any worse than before? You needed to do the same before USB-C. Now at least you have the option to plug your phone into your laptop charger. (Though if your complaint about USB-C for laptop charging is in regards to fragility, then I agree. I'm afraid I'm going to break them. Never had that thought about a barrel plug)

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#507

Post by notacoward »

ziml77 wrote: post #491
notacoward wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't seem like a factor in favor of USB-C. I regularly charge any of two dozen USB device in my house from any of a half dozen smart chargers, using too many micro-B cables to count, and it has been months since I spent even one moment thinking about compatibility among them all. This kind of setup was already common. My USB-C devices are the ones I need to worry about. All of the chargers I've bought (not th…

Bringing up the Switch is unfair to USB-C. That would be like complaining about IEC C14 if Nintendo decided to make a connector that was just a hair larger and swapped hot and ground. Not being compliant is completely Nintendo's fault.

> Bringing up the Switch is unfair to USB-C.

Not really. Other interconnect standards have often (sadly not always) made it much harder for a small error like this to cause actual physical damage. USB-C made it easy, despite decades of learning on the subject. Yes, the fault is mostly Nintendo's, but USB-IF wasn't totally innocent either.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#508

Post by jorgekong »

CogentHedgehog wrote: post #187
jeremymcanally wrote: post #4

Really? I find it to be a game changer for me. The fact that my laptop, Switch, iPad, and several other devices can all share a charge has made my life much easier. I can just sprinkle a few of them throughout the house and never be without power. Before it was always a hunt to find a cable, or I had to be in [x] room to charge [y] device because that's where the charger lived. Plus, I can charge my MacBook on either…

Same, USB-C is one of those things that for me just works. I buy USB-PD chargers and cables from reputable brands, and everything just charges. When I use the cables for data transfer, it just works -- no muss or fuss like there were with some of the charge-only converter cables for charging micro-USB devices. Now if I were using Thunderbolt 3, yeah, you need a higher-end cable and there are restrictions on cable len…

Which specific cables (or brands) would you recommend?

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#509

Post by hobofan »

qwerty456127 wrote: post #498
QuercusMax wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simpler than that - they don't want others to produce Switch-compliant accessories which compete with their own.

Why use a standard connector then? Why not use a proprietary one? The USB-C connector itself is far from perfect and I can see no reason to use it if actual compatibility is not what you seek.

Because with a standard connector they could use existing cheap suppliers for that part? And apparently one that was too cheap to properly implement the standard.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#510

Post by markstos »

jeremymcanally wrote: post #4

Really? I find it to be a game changer for me. The fact that my laptop, Switch, iPad, and several other devices can all share a charge has made my life much easier. I can just sprinkle a few of them throughout the house and never be without power. Before it was always a hunt to find a cable, or I had to be in [x] room to charge [y] device because that's where the charger lived. Plus, I can charge my MacBook on either…

The mess isn't about you, it's about the rest of us.

Old USB printer cables have a "USB-A" end that goes into your computer and the USB-B end for the printer. You can't mess that up.

I've recently handled multiple support calls from a family member due to USB-C confusion. I have to explain "This USB port is only for power, this USB port is for power and data. And don't try to try use HDMI through your USB hub because it some some strange problem. Use this other USB-C port only for your monitor".

Maybe USB C is better for a few, but it's worse for many.

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