My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison • Hacker News Board

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#211

Post by stupidgarbage » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:32 PM UTC

nendroid wrote: post #81

nickff wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are losing their jobs because of offhand tweets completely unrelated to their occupation; how can we expect that a blemish as big as a criminal record will be overlooked?

You can tweet racist stuff and still be president of the United States. The law protects him from the emotions of the masses. This law does not extend over to your employment at a commercial company. The reason why people lose their jobs for racist tweets is because companies are reacting to the emotional sentiment of the masses and pulling a PR maneuver. In short, for commercial jobs, it doesn't matter your crime, o…

You racist

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#212

Post by bluGill » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

minitoar wrote: post #123

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a problem though: - The standard of proof in criminal law is very high. There are very specific definitions of most criminal acts and these must be proven "beyond reasonable doubt" - The definition of "racist tweet" on the other hand is as fuzzy as it can be. Usually it drills down to "someone whom I don't like said something that I have interpreted in the way I don't like" If we think that racist tweets shou…

What do you think a good definition of “racist tweet” would be?

There shouldn't be one. Everything bad about a racist tweet is bad when race isn't an issue.

Society has switched what it is racist about many times in the past. Just 100 years ago (WWI was just over) it was worse to be German than black in the US. Someone told me that in the 1870s the KKK had many black members - the group was against Catholics not blacks, but they changed (I do not know if this is true, but even if false it isn't unlikely). It will switch again.

Whatever your law is needs to cover all cases, otherwise it will be worked around quickly.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#213

Post by stickfigure » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

thelean12 wrote: post #14

There are a lot of people saying they're in favor of this type of thing. And for non-violent offenses I'd probably also be on board. But this person committed a "serious, violent crime" that sent them to prison for 13 years. Are you comfortable sitting next to someone who is capable of a "serious, violent crime"? Are there certain crimes that cross the line for you? Would you expect your employer to inform you of the…

> Are you comfortable sitting next to someone who is capable of a "serious, violent crime"?

As long as it wasn't "murdered coworker over TABS vs SPACES argument".

Although, I guess it would depend on their stance?

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#214

Post by Justen » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

seer wrote: post #197

djsumdog wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Readers from other countries, what is it like there? I remember when I lived in Australia, my friends told me that many crimes do not show up on background checks after 5 years. Also in Australia, the sex offender registry is confidential, and can only be checked for very specific things (jobs involving children, certain types of housing, etc.) In the US, there are ways of getting records expunged for some crimes, bu…

In Bulgaria (EU) they often ask you to provide proof that you are currently not being prosecuted, but apart from that, the only time I’ve been asked to get a criminal record was when applying for a citizenship. And having one is not something that would stop the process, but can be grounds for denial. Programmers can get a free pass for a lot of things here though.

Just curious how you would typically prove you aren't being prosecuted.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#215

Post by x86_64Ubuntu » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:35 PM UTC

s_dev wrote: post #31

caseyscottmckay wrote: post #8

We need more of this. A criminal record in the US is a curse for life, leaving former criminals with little chance at success and little to live for. People without much to live for are dangerous. We should help our former criminals rather than condemn them for life--it benefits us all.

>A criminal record in the US is a curse for life The US system probably is overly harsh -- in Ireland it's probaby overly lenient and the pendulum affect is that we've criminals being called in to court with literally hundreds of prior convictions and then they're let off with suspended sentences and then go straight back to what they were doing. Equally frustrating -- to see the guilty just walk off and laugh as it…

The difference is that crimes are usually done against other people. I as a citizen can usually defend myself against wrongdoing by other people, but I can only defend myself against state wrongdoing in the state's courts, with the state's rules. Being imbalanced one way is not as equally harmful as being imbalanced the other way.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#216

Post by reader_mode » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:35 PM UTC

aero142 wrote: post #85

thelean12 wrote: post #14

There are a lot of people saying they're in favor of this type of thing. And for non-violent offenses I'd probably also be on board. But this person committed a "serious, violent crime" that sent them to prison for 13 years. Are you comfortable sitting next to someone who is capable of a "serious, violent crime"? Are there certain crimes that cross the line for you? Would you expect your employer to inform you of the…

Honestly, I'm more worried about what 13 years in prison did to the person than the original crime. We don't know what the original crime was so it is hard to say in this case. Perhaps they have some deep, anti-social personality flaw and I wouldn't want to sit next to them. I would be concerned about sitting next to an innocent person who spent 13 years in prison, though. For me, that is a root issue. How many crimi…

> Perhaps they have some deep, anti-social personality flaw

Like a lot of people in IT ? Not necessarily anti-social but you need to be asocial to some degree to want to spend 8+ hours in front of a screen talking to a computer. It's usually easy to pick out programmers from general population.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#217

Post by toomanybeersies » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

thelean12 wrote: post #14

There are a lot of people saying they're in favor of this type of thing. And for non-violent offenses I'd probably also be on board. But this person committed a "serious, violent crime" that sent them to prison for 13 years. Are you comfortable sitting next to someone who is capable of a "serious, violent crime"? Are there certain crimes that cross the line for you? Would you expect your employer to inform you of the…

I'm capable of committing a "serious, violent crime", so are you, so are any of your colleagues. Yet I never have, and I assume neither you nor your colleagues have either (based on probability).

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#218

Post by dfxm12 » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

sebmellen wrote: post #62

nendroid wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say this, but most prison time is done for extreme crime that everyone agrees with. In addition this, prison time is usually reserved for not just crimes we agree with but crimes we all agree are extreme. Case in point for this specific case it was violent crime, which I'm sure we can all agree is way worse than a racist tweet.

I would hope that all agree a violent crime is worse than a racist tweet. However, there is a sentiment of sympathy afforded to murderers (that they're somehow deserving of rehabilitation) which is not always extended to those who have tweeted racist things. Perhaps this comes because a murder can be seen as a sad result of circumstances. Perhaps the criminal only had to murder because they had a bad upbringing and n…

This talk is about Justine Sacco. Within 7-8 months of being fired, she got a new job and has continued to work her way up the corporate ladder ever since [0].

You're right. Your line of reasoning is nonsense.

0 - https://www.linkedin.com/in/justinesacco

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#219

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

hash872 wrote: post #196

beisner wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there’s a reasonable middle ground, which is: employers can discriminate based on record only if that crime has a direct relationship to the nature of the employment and the position provides a clear opportunity for abuse in the same fashion as the original crime. Ie people who commit fraud can’t work in financial services, people who hurt children can’t work in education/childcare, people convicted of corrup…

Sure, I kind agree. But- as an employer, am I mandated to hire a pedophile for my software developer job? I just object morally, and the company is my private property. Is this really a good use of state power, to compel me to hire an evil person? Anyways, it'd be impossible to enforce, because I could just say the pedophile failed my coding test. Even if he sued me, it'd be very unlikely to prove his case, and he's…

No one's calling for any mandate, given that the system is currently so stacked against former felons that this worst-case scenario you've posited would require a complete 180 swing into the opposite direction. We're talking about any action that would nudge the status quo, not flip it on its head and introduce dramatic new problems.

> but that doesn't mean that I'm personally obligated to scrub a Superfund site myself

No, but you should probably pay your taxes that go into such efforts, and corporate philanthropy does become a (socially) obligatory activity for companies that reach a certain size and success.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#220

Post by microcolonel » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:38 PM UTC

koiz wrote: post #60

Chernobog wrote: post #53

I was convicted for drugs and firearms in Norway. The only time it has ever come up during my many years as a programmer, was when a consulting company I worked for had the police IT service as a candidate for my next project. Since it was for the police, a background check would be required. I politely told my department head that I would not pass that, and a short summary of my case. At that time I had worked for a…

In the USA, background checks are often just part of the process. There's an entire industry built around providing the service.

I've found a mix with background checks in the U.S; a lot of rental landlords want background checks for the obvious reasons (e.g. housing a convicted rapist with a young woman), employers can go either way, and in my experience it has tended to be reasonable (but I've always worked as a professional, and for people I know through colleagues or acquaintances).

A background check is, in my experience, unusal for renters in Canada, but that might just be my bias, having mostly rented from slumlords and acquaintances.