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The Grand Design (2010)

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11–20 of 64 posts

Re: The Grand Design (2010)

#11

>Traditionally these are questions for philosophy, but philosophy is dead. Philosophy has not kept up with modern developments in science, particularly physics. I'm sorry, what kind of non sensical bias is that? That's like saying that science doesn't care about truth, or is more important than truth. After all, "Truth is one of the central subjects in philosophy. It is also one of the largest." [1] [1] https://plato…

While I do not think the opinion stated in that quote is a useful one, neither do I think it is any better to say that it implies science does not care about truth, on the basis that philosophy has declared itself to be concerned with truth. It is reasonable to assume that both enterprises are seeking truth in their own ways. Einstein and Bohr seem to have considered their work to be philosophical in nature, and Tim Maudlin has feet in both camps.

Re: The Grand Design (2010)

#12
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well of course you can get really abstract, but let's keep the topic on things that we know about to the best of our knowledge. As far as we're aware science and logic applies to things outside of our own experience. This is a semantic issue. Yeah you're not technically wrong that science and logic is part of the human experience. But at the same time there is a demarcation between science/logic and religion. What's…

> principles of science and logic as far as we're "aware" apply "outside" of the "human experience" On the contrary if you take a critical thinking course, you'll see that your logic does apply to the human experience

>On the contrary if you take a critical thinking course, you'll see that your logic does apply to the human experience

Of course it does. I didn't say otherwise. All things we talk about are technically experienced through humans and thus all things are touched by the human experience. But that's just pedantics... we can think outside of that and assume that there are experiences other than our own even though technically the only thing we can experience is the "human experience."

There is a demarcation here that I'm talking about that separates science and religion. Perhaps culture is a better word than experience. What if I say that science and logic apply outside of "human culture" while religion and morality do not? Would that help you understand my point?

Re: The Grand Design (2010)

#13

>Traditionally these are questions for philosophy, but philosophy is dead. Philosophy has not kept up with modern developments in science, particularly physics. I'm sorry, what kind of non sensical bias is that? That's like saying that science doesn't care about truth, or is more important than truth. After all, "Truth is one of the central subjects in philosophy. It is also one of the largest." [1] [1] https://plato…

While I do not think the opinion stated in that quote is a useful one, neither do I think it is any better to say that it implies science does not care about truth, on the basis that philosophy has declared itself to be concerned with truth. It is reasonable to assume that both enterprises are seeking truth in their own ways. Einstein and Bohr seem to have considered their work to be philosophical in nature, and Tim…

I think that is exactly animationwill’s point — that the statement he made is ridiculous, and so too is the author’s statement.

Re: The Grand Design (2010)

#14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> principles of science and logic as far as we're "aware" apply "outside" of the "human experience" On the contrary if you take a critical thinking course, you'll see that your logic does apply to the human experience

>On the contrary if you take a critical thinking course, you'll see that your logic does apply to the human experience Of course it does. I didn't say otherwise. All things we talk about are technically experienced through humans and thus all things are touched by the human experience. But that's just pedantics... we can think outside of that and assume that there are experiences other than our own even though techni…

> What if I say that science and logic apply outside of "human culture" while religion and morality do not?

I would say that when it comes to morality in particular, I have the opposite intuition in that morality would be highly likely to extend behind the human experience. As you say in another comment, yes I agree that the rules are arbitrary and there is no absolute morality. However, that’s like that saying in statistics that all models are wrong. Yes, but some are useful.

All moral systems may be arbitrary (a perspective that by the way is a part of philosophy), but some are useful, perhaps even necessary, for the well-functioning of society. Discussing how to make, extend, and enforce these moral systems seems likely relevant to any society made of independent agents, whether human or not.

As a meta point, just as you can’t defeat science by doing better scientific experiments (because you’ll only ever be improving science by doing so), you can’t defeat philosophy by providing better philosophical arguments. The points you made about morality are points that other philosophers have already made. You are not avoiding philosophy by declaring morality to be arbitrary and defending your assertion, you are in fact doing the opposite and contributing to the philosophical discourse on the nature of morality.

Religion and morality are only two broad areas of philosophy. There are many more, if you care to look.

Re: The Grand Design (2010)

#15
post #2

>Traditionally these are questions for philosophy, but philosophy is dead. Philosophy has not kept up with modern developments in science, particularly physics. I largely agree with this perspective on philosophy. Philosophy poses as a sort of higher level view of reality than physics or science. Rather than thinking of philosophy as a higher level view I think of it as a biased point of view. Things like the philoso…

I think the fundamental error you're making here is thinking of philosophy as a monolithic metastructure of human thought rather than thousands of discrete silos of academic study representing millions of perspectives over the course of human history.

I would argue that one of the reasons we have so many societies that are so heavily dependent on scientific understanding yet also so perilously ignorant of science is because of the dearth of philosophical study in those cultures.

In order to parse scientific understanding without wasting its insights we need to already have the mental tools needed to critically asses the usefulness and truth of said knowledge.

That is what philosophy provides. From epistemology to logic to the wider existential questions, exploration of philosophy is what leads most modern people to rationality, whatever their starting points.

For many people, understanding their religious or moral philosophy within the wider network of possible options that people have considered valid over the eons is the first step in the direction of scientific literacy.

To discount that study because you're already a rationalist is reductive and self-sabotaging.

Re: The Grand Design (2010)

#16
post #2

>Traditionally these are questions for philosophy, but philosophy is dead. Philosophy has not kept up with modern developments in science, particularly physics. I largely agree with this perspective on philosophy. Philosophy poses as a sort of higher level view of reality than physics or science. Rather than thinking of philosophy as a higher level view I think of it as a biased point of view. Things like the philoso…

You seem to imply that knowledge of human experience-centric matters (morality, religion, perception, language, social sciences, the list goes on) is lesser than knowledge centered around the nature (obviously excluding the human experience).

You used the word "bias", but researchers of course try to use scientific approaches as much as possible. Humanities thinkers are also preoccupied with truth and knowledge. It's just that their field is much more subjective. But it is a fallacy to conclude that therefore they are less serious or important subjects. You'd be basically expecting us to drop a subject just because it is harder.

Re: The Grand Design (2010)

#17
post #3
post #2

>Traditionally these are questions for philosophy, but philosophy is dead. Philosophy has not kept up with modern developments in science, particularly physics. I largely agree with this perspective on philosophy. Philosophy poses as a sort of higher level view of reality than physics or science. Rather than thinking of philosophy as a higher level view I think of it as a biased point of view. Things like the philoso…

Logic is a field of philosophy [1]. As most inductive reasoning is. It would be impossible to separate philosophy from math, and in turn math from physics. Philosophy is not intended to be a high level view but a low level one, willing to examine the core structures of any system, weather those are man made ones such as ethics or beliefs, or supposed nature laws such as the physical world. It’s is true that some mode…

It is certainly true that science is founded on philosophy and is arguably a branch of it, but the implicit question in the controversial passage from the review is whether modern philosophy's methods are adequate. In that regard, as pointed out by Eliezer Yudkowsky [1], two millenia of philosophic inquiry was blindsided by the more radical epistemic and metaphysical implications of 20th. century physics.

Personally, I feel that philosophy of the mind's preoccupation with materialism (or its denial) [2] is a distraction that is holding it back.

[1] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Bp8vnEciPA5TXSy6f/can-you-pr...

[2] http://www.timcrane.com/uploads/2/5/2/4/25243881/crane_hist_... p. 13

Re: The Grand Design (2010)

#18
post #9
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Morality [...] is as specific to human behavior as the mating behavior of chimpanzees It's true that a lot of what has been written about morality and ethics turns out to make a lot of assumptions that tend to limit it to human beings; Kant's "rational agents" are pretty clearly just humans, certainly adult, likely neurotypical. Although he probably intended for it to be a truly universal concept, the definition he…

>The frontier of ethics is to consider a more generalized ethical framework that can encompass other forms of intelligence. You cannot derive morality from pure logic. Good and evil has nothing to do with a truth table. In addition there is a huge body of evidence that are specific moral behaviors are the result of natural selection. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Natural_morality . Morality are just arbitrary behaviora…

> In addition there is a huge body of evidence that are specific moral behaviors are the result of natural selection.

There's a huge body of argument, which argues that various "moral" behaviors could have arisen via natural selection. Actual evidence? Not so much.

Re: The Grand Design (2010)

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>On the contrary if you take a critical thinking course, you'll see that your logic does apply to the human experience Of course it does. I didn't say otherwise. All things we talk about are technically experienced through humans and thus all things are touched by the human experience. But that's just pedantics... we can think outside of that and assume that there are experiences other than our own even though techni…

> What if I say that science and logic apply outside of "human culture" while religion and morality do not? I would say that when it comes to morality in particular, I have the opposite intuition in that morality would be highly likely to extend behind the human experience. As you say in another comment, yes I agree that the rules are arbitrary and there is no absolute morality. However, that’s like that saying in st…

>All moral systems may be arbitrary (a perspective that by the way is a part of philosophy), but some are useful, perhaps even necessary, for the well-functioning of society. Discussing how to make, extend, and enforce these moral systems seems likely relevant to any society made of independent agents, whether human or not.

There are physical structures in your brain that point to genetic transmission of moral behavior. This indicates that morality is a product of natural selection. Moral behavior exists because it helps us survive similar to how hunger helps us survive. So what is the point of creating a philosophy around Morality when we don't create such philosophical studies around hunger? Why is there a philosophy of morality and not a philosophy of hunger when both sets of behaviors are arbitrary and serve the purpose you stated: "but some are useful, perhaps even necessary, for the well-functioning of society. Discussing how to make, extend, and enforce these systems seems likely relevant to any society made of independent agents, whether human or not."

Clearly humans do not act morally. Pure moral behavior does not aid in survival. Rather a blend altruistic behavior and self interested behavior aids in survival. How natural selection implements this behavior is arbitrary. For humans, natural selection has NOT chosen to implement survival behavior through a singular processor, in short we do not see our survival as a blend of altruistic and self interested behavior. IN fact we do not even behave with "survival" on the forefront of our minds. Rather our behavior is implemented by our brain using conflicting emotional goals. These goals aid in our survival and exist for the purpose of our survival and are awareness of this fact or lack thereof is not a requirement.

We are aware of what evil behavior is, and we feel the emotions related to temptation we also feel guilt... we are also aware of good behavior and we feel emotions that reward us for altruistic behavior but also punish us when we do too much good to our own detriment. Genetic tuning of our emotional response largely influence our behavior. An evil person feels little response in harming others and an altruistic person feels great reward in helping others.

Morality and law arises as a phenomenon of our neo cortex attempting to parametrize and formalize these emotions. It is a mechanical side effect of trying to make greater sense of a mechanism that only has a singular purpose of survival. Morality is just a made up categorization of behaviors for a specific system.

The question is why then do we spend so much time trying to formalize ethics, fairness and altruistic behavior but spend almost no time trying to formalize other survival instincts like hunger or lust?

The hypothesis is complex but it exists. The neocortex (our higher level consciousness) is said to have evolved later in the evolution of life as a sort of higher level layer of consciousness that has executive control over our overall actions. Instincts like hunger and sex drive are baser survival instincts required for all things to survive and evolved relatively early before the neocortex. Many living things with no higher level consciousness such as bacteria display primitive versions of these instincts.

As a result our neocortex has no trouble recognizing hunger instinct or sex drive as separate modules within the human brain as these modules remain very well separated as they were created in different times of our species evolution. Therefore we don't care to analyze these modules as they are easily recognized as base instincts.

Group behavior involving altruism on the other hand evolved at a later time with the neocortex. Altruism aids in survival but its' benefits are not immediate and as a result like the neocortex such behaviors take longer to evolve. As a result it is harder for us to separate and see that these emotions are the same basal instincts as hunger because these modules are so integrated with the neocortex as they evolved together. We make the mistake and assume that morality arises from logic when it is in fact just a set of emotions reacting to certain actions and behaviors.

Due to the fact that the morality module in our brain is a product of natural selection you can actually probe it to find internal illogical inconsistencies that are unresolved because resolving such conflicts do not aid in survival. See the trolley problem: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Trolley_problem and various edits to it like the fat man or the fat villain. Arbitrary edits that change the circumstance but not the overall logical moral consequences have a huge influence on human response showing that our modal module is not internally consistent because there was no need for mother nature to make it fully consistent as it does not aid in our survival. When you examine moral conflicts try to self-reflect. You will find that like all people you try to make sense of why you "feel" something is wrong in once case and why it isn't in another case. This process is exactly as I described, an attempt to formalize the resulting output of the moral module of your brain, but you just don't realize that this is what you're doing.

If it is worth studying morality as a philosophy then it is worth studying hunger and sex-drive as a philosophy as well. Philosophy chooses morality as a zone of study because it does not fully strip away the emotions and biases involved with the human experience in the same way that logic and science does.

Re: The Grand Design (2010)

#20
post #7
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Logic is a field of philosophy [1]. As most inductive reasoning is. It would be impossible to separate philosophy from math, and in turn math from physics. Philosophy is not intended to be a high level view but a low level one, willing to examine the core structures of any system, weather those are man made ones such as ethics or beliefs, or supposed nature laws such as the physical world. It’s is true that some mode…

Religion and morality is part of philosophy as well. Does this mean it is impossible to separate Morality and Mathematics? What is the mathematical formula for good and evil? >Philosophy is not intended to be a high level view but a low level one, We're talking about the same thing, high or low is just the choice of symbolic direction as nothing is really "lower" or "higher." Let's remove that from the semantics to r…

I think this fairly well points out that we do not actually mean the same thing when we say “high” and “low”. Although, I will concede that the two terms are often interchangeable and often misused.

Correct me if I’m reading you wrongly, but It seems to me when you say high level you’re offering philosophy up as an umbrella where all things that fall beneath it are then equivocated.

My argument is that I do not believe this. I believe philosophy is a tool best used to build things up from the bottom. I think when physics asks a question of itself, we can safely call that philosophy. In much the same way, it is also philosophy when we ask ourselves if what we are doing is morally “right”. Same tool, vastly different jobs. With little to no connection inherent between the jobs themselves.

This would be the same in mathematics if I were to offer an axiom in traditional number theory (specifically all positive integers in a base 10 system). I would then need to argue that my proposed axiom did not apply also to propositional calculus, as no reasonable mathematical would believe that they were equivalent. This is not to say there is no overlap, there very well may be if interpreted correctly. But it does not by its existence imply they should be the same thing.

This is also where I think we agree. For me physics’ ability to question its axioms are in fact what separates it from things like religious dogma. An axiom that is indisputable is dogma in a sense. So the reason why science is so powerful is this ability to question and not take results on faith. To remove philosophy from that would be to diminish what sets it apart.

So with the tool metaphor I’d just say agin that not all practitioners use their tools wisely. But this does not mean we should throw out all of our hammers just because we see someone using one upside down.

I would also suggest reading more on the topic of ethics in philosophy. I think you may find that the field is far more scientific then you believe it to be. You’ll also note that there are many similarities in its logic and methods of categorization. The issue is simply that it is much more difficult to answer questions in ethics than it is to find out what happens to an object on a frictionless plane. And if physics is the one true answer, than not much can be considered purely human made. As humans abide the same physical laws that frictionless planes do.

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