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My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

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Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that's true, there's no comparison between (a) and (b) in terms of how bad the original offense is. One is murder and the other is a thought crime.

I can compare anything I like, actually. That's my right and my responsibility as the one who determines who comes to work with me and my colleagues. You can say that all "though crimes" are incomparable to legal indictments, and when you are hiring people that is your right as well.

I didn't mean that there's no way you can make a comparison in a literal sense.

I mean that it takes a particularly screwed up and deranged individual to think that murder and racist thoughts are somehow equivalent on the moral scale. Also, I'm not claiming that this is the position you are taking, only that it would be deranged if it is the one you are in fact taking.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#182

There are a lot of people saying they're in favor of this type of thing. And for non-violent offenses I'd probably also be on board. But this person committed a "serious, violent crime" that sent them to prison for 13 years. Are you comfortable sitting next to someone who is capable of a "serious, violent crime"? Are there certain crimes that cross the line for you? Would you expect your employer to inform you of the…

Let's break this down. Someone commits murder, and gets sent to prison for 13 years. They are out now. How do we deal with them? 1. If everyone says that they will no longer want to work with such a person, especially rich people, who can enforce that want, that person will end up working with poor people. The rich people are making a classist argument. 2. Worse, if that person, cannot even get bad jobs, they will be…

After reading everyone's responses and responding myself, I've realized that I'm really caught up on the murder aspect.

I think my revised opinion is that if you intentionally murder someone without a damn good reason, you should spend life in prison. This can include second degree murder, which is often not life in prison in the US (And also happens to line up with the OP scenario).

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#183
post #60

I was convicted for drugs and firearms in Norway. The only time it has ever come up during my many years as a programmer, was when a consulting company I worked for had the police IT service as a candidate for my next project. Since it was for the police, a background check would be required. I politely told my department head that I would not pass that, and a short summary of my case. At that time I had worked for a…

In the USA, background checks are often just part of the process. There's an entire industry built around providing the service.

Do you find that this industry is staffed with rude people with a bad attitude, who treat everyone being screened like a criminal?

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#184
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hope that all agree a violent crime is worse than a racist tweet. However, there is a sentiment of sympathy afforded to murderers (that they're somehow deserving of rehabilitation) which is not always extended to those who have tweeted racist things. Perhaps this comes because a murder can be seen as a sad result of circumstances. Perhaps the criminal only had to murder because they had a bad upbringing and n…

> people perceived as racist are permanently marked as being ideologically dangerous. I don't think this is necessarily true. We just haven't seen many racist people make amends and ask for forgiveness. I believe people can change and if they do, they should be reintegrated into the workplace. I hadn't given it much thought before, but I asked myself if I would hire or work with a former criminal qualified for the jo…

> Racism get tried in the court of public opinion, and then there is a sentence of being

Placed in high government office?

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#185

We need more of this. A criminal record in the US is a curse for life, leaving former criminals with little chance at success and little to live for. People without much to live for are dangerous. We should help our former criminals rather than condemn them for life--it benefits us all.

I wonder what kind of community reaction there will be if Hans Reiser submits kernel patches after getting released/paroled.

I don't see why they wouldn't accept his patches even if he somehow manages to submit them from inside prison. You can't murder someone with a patch file.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not distracting, because those underlying questions shape your reaction. Murder is considered one of the worst offenses in any society. But this person was already punished by society, and seen fit by the law to return to it. So what could explain your continue (and very understandable) discomfort? Is it because you believe that the penal system did not properly make this person safe to return to society? Is…

> Is it because you believe that the penal system did not properly make this person safe to return to society? I absolutely don't believe the penal system makes people safe after they serve their time. > Is it because that once someone has committed such a terrible crime that they are inevitably going to be able to do so again, because they have the psychological profile to do it? If a person killed someone without a…

Thank you for giving your honest answers. It's good to examine one's beliefs.

> I absolutely don't believe the penal system makes people safe after they serve their time.

Fair, and understandable.

> If a person killed someone without a damn good reason, why would I think they wouldn't do it again?

Why would you think they would do it again? Given that someone spent over a decade in prison, shouldn't it have deterred them from killing again?

You'd have to actually look into recidivism rates to see how this works out in reality, unless you believe that for psychological and moral philosophical reasons that such a person who's committed murder is both willing and likely to do so again.

> I think if you intentionally murder someone without a damn good reason you should spend life in prison. Right now, second degree murder can include that and often is not life in prison.

Okay, so your personal standard is that murder does not have to be premeditated to deserve life in prison. That's fair. But I think that goes beyond discomfort with working with such a person who has been through the prison system; that's believing that such a person shouldn't be out of the prison system at all.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#187
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hope that all agree a violent crime is worse than a racist tweet. However, there is a sentiment of sympathy afforded to murderers (that they're somehow deserving of rehabilitation) which is not always extended to those who have tweeted racist things. Perhaps this comes because a murder can be seen as a sad result of circumstances. Perhaps the criminal only had to murder because they had a bad upbringing and n…

> people perceived as racist are permanently marked as being ideologically dangerous. I don't think this is necessarily true. We just haven't seen many racist people make amends and ask for forgiveness. I believe people can change and if they do, they should be reintegrated into the workplace. I hadn't given it much thought before, but I asked myself if I would hire or work with a former criminal qualified for the jo…

My point is mainly that the two "offences" (if we are to class racism as an offence), are vastly different, and in entirely differently classes.

To rehabilitate someone who made a joke in bad taste should be far, far easier than to rehabilitate a murderer. The two just cannot be equivocated. One is a criminal act, the other is expressing an opinion, albeit a very bad one.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#188

This is an interesting story, but if I had the choice to hire a felon (yes, once you commit a felony, even after serving time you are still a felon) or a scrappy coding bootcamp grad I'd take the bootcamp grad every time. Especially if I'm a founder with significant skin in the game, why would I risk my money, time and hard work on someone with a recorded record of making poor choices when there are hoards of others…

> why would I risk my money, time and hard work on someone with a recorded record of making poor choices when there are hoards of others who haven't broken the law?

This assumes that your scrappy bootcamp grad hasn't broken the law. In fact the more likely scenario is that they have broken the law multiple times, they just were never caught and charged for it. Unless we are suddenly going to believe that young adults and teenagers don't have an affinity for recreational marijuana or underage drinking or doing any of the various stupid things young people do.

Your mentality applies to yourself as well: why would any investor or employee risk their money, time, and hard work on someone with no proven track record, when they could throw it at the hoards of other CEOs who have demonstrated the ability to profit? You wouldn't want someone to look over you just because you never got the chance to demonstrate your potential; it would be equally unfair to look over someone else who served their time and is now looking for opportunities to demonstrate themselves.

> (yes, once you commit a felony, even after serving time you are still a felon)

Then what is the point of imprisoning felons? Why don't we just kill them all? If there is no way to recover from being a felon, why let them live or let them out?

Sounds harsh, of course. The answer should be that once you have gone to prison and gotten out, your crime is behind you, and unless you are actively committing crimes again you should be judged equally with someone with no record.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#189
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think those questions are distracting to my very simple point: I don't want to work with a person who has murdered someone without a damn good reason (self-defense). I truly can't believe that HN thinks this is some offensive opinion.

So what should happen to that person, exactly? Should they be in prison forever? Should they be released but not allowed to work? Should they only be allowed to work by themselves? I understand your reluctance, but the alternatives to "let the released felon work" are not great.

Actions have consequences and after breaking major societal taboos like murder or rape it is very difficult or impossible to repair the damage a person has done to society. I have trouble judging people negatively if they don't want to associate with a person who has murdered or raped someone.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#190

We need more of this. A criminal record in the US is a curse for life, leaving former criminals with little chance at success and little to live for. People without much to live for are dangerous. We should help our former criminals rather than condemn them for life--it benefits us all.

> A criminal record in the US

It's worse than that. I've been denied an apartment for having an arrest on my record, even though I wasn't convicted.

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