My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison • Hacker News Board

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#171

Post by rc-1140 » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

ciarannolan wrote: post #7

tldr: "I reached out to a friend who is Head of Engineering at a ~500 person fintech company."

I get why this is being downvoted but it's still a very good point: an ex-con needed a previously-established connection with someone who just so happens to be CTO of a reasonably successful startup who knows another engineering lead at a fintech company who took mercy on the ex-con's predicament to get a job.

It's brazen, I admit, but the ex-con part can be substituted for other more fortunate people, like those with little experience, non-traditional backgrounds, those who never got advanced degrees (undergraduates mostly). The oh-so-different software industry isn't that different from any other industry these days in that it's more about who you know rather than what you know to find employment, but the added bonus for software types is that often enough it's both! Maybe I'll look back at this comment and feel it's overly pessimistic, but I hope that's because things changed for the better.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#172

Post by patmcc » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

thelean12 wrote: post #92

Apocryphon wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it becomes either a law enforcement issue- does our system properly rehabilitate offenders? or a psychological issue- is someone who commits a violent crime inevitably going to repeat it?- or maybe a moral philosophy question- are people inherently evil and dangerous? Because you’re asking a safety/comfort question, but it’s dependent on the answers to the above.

I think those questions are distracting to my very simple point: I don't want to work with a person who has murdered someone without a damn good reason (self-defense). I truly can't believe that HN thinks this is some offensive opinion.

So what should happen to that person, exactly? Should they be in prison forever? Should they be released but not allowed to work? Should they only be allowed to work by themselves?

I understand your reluctance, but the alternatives to "let the released felon work" are not great.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#173

Post by staticassertion » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:12 PM UTC

hnracer wrote: post #166

staticassertion wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm perfectly willing to: a) Understand violent criminals have made amends and are rehabilitated b) Believe that people who were once racist are no longer racist Both issues are, to me, a 'sad result of circumstances'. So all of that seems fine.

While that's true, there's no comparison between (a) and (b) in terms of how bad the original offense is. One is murder and the other is a thought crime.

I can compare anything I like, actually. That's my right and my responsibility as the one who determines who comes to work with me and my colleagues.

You can say that all "though crimes" are incomparable to legal indictments, and when you are hiring people that is your right as well.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#174

Post by luckylion » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:12 PM UTC

meheleventyone wrote: post #118

s_dev wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have statistics but there are incidents like these that are regularly reported in Irish and International Media: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/woman-most-c...

Sounds like that lady needs care more than she needs more prison time. Particularly after a 16 month sentence and the petty nature of the actual crime. Incidents like these get in the national press precisely because they are rare and hence interesting. Do you think there are tens of people, hundred of people or thousands of people with >100 criminal convictions?

In Germany, that would Intensivtäter (literally intensive perpetrators). It's not rare to have young men with dozens of convictions for assault, breaking and entering, mugging etc. They typically don't get any jail time and will collect more indictments between being arrested and seeing a judge. For Berlin they're having a list of 500 people, almost all male.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#175

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:12 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #117

s_dev wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A criminal record in the US is a curse for life The US system probably is overly harsh -- in Ireland it's probaby overly lenient and the pendulum affect is that we've criminals being called in to court with literally hundreds of prior convictions and then they're let off with suspended sentences and then go straight back to what they were doing. Equally frustrating -- to see the guilty just walk off and laugh as it…

> The US system probably is overly harsh -- in Ireland it's probaby overly lenient and the pendulum affect is that we've criminals being called in to court with literally hundreds of prior convictions and then they're let off with suspended sentences and then go straight back to what they were doing. FWIW, it's not evenly distributed in the US. We have jurisdictions like Chicago where violent offenders are released o…

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Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#176

Post by heyoni » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:12 PM UTC

moate wrote: post #115

heyoni wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the real issue is that we don’t rehabilitate, so under our current system of justice, I would argue that it’s normal for someone to feel something in proximity of such a convict. The reason being, they were probably treated like an animal for over a decade. Give them hope and some courses to get their shit together and suddenly I’m less worried about the whole situation.

So a whole lot of "not in my neighborhood". It has to start somewhere. Like...giving them a good paying job in a thriving industry. You're contradicting yourself and you only wrote 3 sentences. You've being shown the proof of how we can rehabilitate and then going "but IDK, doesn't seem good enough..."

I’m not being clear. I am sympathizing with OP. Because we know recidivism is higher when you don’t rehabilitate, sitting next to a violate offender carries some risk.

However, when you do rehabilitate, even violent offenders can lead mostly normal lives as is the case here.

I agree, it has to start somewhere, but because our current system acts as a self fulfilling prophecy, it’s going to be very hard to enact change, though I’m all for it.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#177

Post by staticassertion » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:12 PM UTC

sebmellen wrote: post #162

staticassertion wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm perfectly willing to: a) Understand violent criminals have made amends and are rehabilitated b) Believe that people who were once racist are no longer racist Both issues are, to me, a 'sad result of circumstances'. So all of that seems fine.

As am I. The point I was trying to make was that there isn't really a "path to rehabilitation" for people who have made very minor missteps online. In the case of the linked TED talk, the persecuted woman made a mistake, and was not a "career-racist". I think even accusing her of racism is a distortion of the word — she made a bad joke in bad taste. Meanwhile, there is an established, albeit broken path to rehabilita…

Oh I agree entirely that we lack paths to rehabilitation for both the (a) and (b) cases, couldn't agree more - it makes the judgment call to hire that much more difficult.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#178

Post by asdfghjkl87 » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

dfxm12 wrote: post #148

caseyscottmckay wrote: post #8

We need more of this. A criminal record in the US is a curse for life, leaving former criminals with little chance at success and little to live for. People without much to live for are dangerous. We should help our former criminals rather than condemn them for life--it benefits us all.

leaving former criminals with little chance at success It's worth noting that it also leaves their children a smaller chance at success as well[0], and then the cycle continues. When you add this to the fact that Black male offenders received sentences on average 19.1 percent longer than similarly situated White male offenders [1], this adds up to one aspect of systemic racism in America. 0 - https://projects.sfchron…

Not to mention the systemic misandry:

Female offenders of all races received shorter sentences than White male offenders during the Post-Report period, as they had for the prior four periods.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#179

Post by jedimastert » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

nexuist wrote: post #153

dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #130

In Germany I was asked to provide my criminal record while working at a payment processing startup that had to obtain certain certificates. They were probably looking for crimes of a fiscal nature however, which is understandable. Second chances are second chances but security is mostly about trust. Another job at a startup in Germany that worked in less tightly controlled spaces has never asked me to produce my crim…

What crimes are applicable to software engineers, then? I don't think there are any laws punishing you from writing bad code, nor are there laws addressing data theft or security misconfigurations. GDPR applies against companies and not individual people, as far as I can tell. Would the only valid crimes be related to computer hacking?

I could assume hacking, fraud, corporate espionage, etc. along with info relevant to the software (i.e. if you make banking software I'd assume fiscal crime would be at least somewhat relevant)

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#180

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:15 PM UTC

gtsteve wrote: post #17

jnwatson wrote: post #9

Unfortunately, the worst offender of this is the federal government. Essentially any federal position, regardless of actual job position, requires a background check.

Most government jobs in the UK require this too. However, they don't require a spotless record but there would be some types of offences (serious fraud, affiliation with organised crime, etc) that would make it impossible. It's assessed based on the job, the offence, and how long ago it was. Does a background check in the US imply that they'd never consider anyone with any blemish on their record whatsoever? Surely i…

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