Programming language notation is a barrier to entry • Hacker News Board

Re: Programming language notation is a barrier to entry

#81

Post by beagle3 » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 3:19 PM UTC

Izkata wrote: post #76

beagle3 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird. 1) When I grew up, multiplication and the letter X were styled very differently in books so that that was never ever a confusion. 2) The switch to dot, was NOT to avoid ambiguity, but to shorten stuff (IIRC we did that when we learned order of operations and started solving simple equations - writing "4 (dot) a" instaed of "4 (cross) a" -- and then just "4a" but multiplications still appear often among parenth…

On 1, we used typed-up worksheets that didn't have different styling. And even then, on occasion we had to write the "x" as part of an answer, or the teacher on the blackboard while teaching, which was more what I was thinking of anyway. On 3, I think you misunderstood my point - in 2, we learned dot (the symbol) is multiplication, never touching on dot product because that was a good year or two later, then at that…

Historically if I'm not mistaken, dot is multiplication between scalars, and only later became "dot product". But this is distinction without difference. You used "cross" or "dot" to denote scalar multiplication. You did NOT use "a dot product restricted to scalars".

Re: Programming language notation is a barrier to entry

#82

Post by karmakaze » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 3:27 PM UTC

cammil wrote: post #60

yellowstuff wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like the term "programming language" and your comment illustrates why. We would expect that an aspiring architect needs to learn a little bit of notation, and a lot about the tradeoffs and constraints of making a building. We should expect that programmers learn a little bit of notation, and a lot about the tradeoffs and constraints of making software. Knowing your tools well is important, but not sufficient.…

I think I understand your point. Do you think that the "programming language" should sacrifice the usefulness of its syntax in order to appeal to beginners more? There is also I think a difference between Architecture and software development in that an architect aims to design and plan with drawings and documents a building that in the end is distinct from them, whereas software development produces a set of documen…

Not to detract from the main point. A program is also distinct from what it produces unless it's a quine.

Re: Programming language notation is a barrier to entry

#83

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:40 PM UTC

seg_lol wrote: post #59

TeMPOraL wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notation is a tool for thought. You want to optimize it for the problem you're solving. Not that PL notation is optimal, but being beginner-friendly is about the last thing one should care about.

> but being beginner-friendly is about the last thing one should care about. Why is that? If our ideas are good, don't we want the most number of people to know them? What if PL research isn't getting the population of people and ideas it desires? Look to organizations that have been around longer with even more inscrutable forms of knowledge, how well do they age and evolve? I think there is a lot more at play here…

> Why is that? If our ideas are good, don't we want the most number of people to know them?

We want that. But notation is for working with and on ideas, not teaching them. You want a tool that maps well to the problem domain, that lets you efficiently operate difficult concepts by proxy of simple symbols, whose relationship maps closely to the rules governing the problem domain.

The task of a beginner isn't to grasp a complex domain immediately (as that's impossible). Their task is to gradually ingest ideas (and increasingly complex notations) until they can operate at the level of the experienced, with the tools of the experienced.

Demanding that a notation used for work is also easy for beginners is just handicapping the experienced, and making advanced work near-impossible. It would be like demanding that every excavator be no larger than 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 meters and be made entirely of colorful plastic, because that's what little kids can work with.

The "barrier" that a notation creates isn't there to keep people from crossing it. Building ramps over that barrier is a good thing to do. But the barrier has a purpose - it's there to contain and control the forces of thought that are unleashed inside it.

Re: Programming language notation is a barrier to entry

#84

Post by tsumnia » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

swiley wrote: post #2

Meh Notation in any field is a barrier to entry. See programmers takes on both math and music notation that are often posted here. The thing about notation that people sometimes don't think about is that it's used by many different types of people. Some things that would be convenient when notated implicitly make thinking about other things difficult.

The issue is that no one in CS seems to care that "Notation in any field is a barrier to entry". Almost all CS Ed research presently focuses on the problem-solving skill of CS rather than the technical literacy. There is almost no interest from educators to train this literacy despite work from myself [1] and others [2] saying that explicitly training these skills improves student performance.

The issue, in my opinion, is that notation and technical literacy are skills that students are "expected" to pick up through proxy. They do problem-solving problems, so they are getting experience coding. But the issue with this is that since novices are struggling with notation/syntax, they are juggling problem-solving issues (logic errors) and technical issues (syntax errors).

[1] https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3373165.3373177

[2] https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=8...

Re: Programming language notation is a barrier to entry

#85

Post by yencabulator » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

ardfard wrote: post #64

x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #28

People are being dismissive of the premise here. But I remember when someone gave me a link to a Haskell repository. I had no idea what was going on, or what those alien symbols meant. I can only imagine that the barrier to entry for Haskell is much, much, much higher than that of an Algol descended language.

Actually basic Haskell syntax is very simple, it's lot closer to basic math symbol and equation. What make it hard to understand is the use of abstractions like Monad, Transformers etc, and people use it a lot in Haskell. It's very hard in fact to make a useful Haskell program without a Monad. That said, I don't think another mainstream languages that use advanced abstraction like Haskell is gonna be easier to read e…

Monads, Transformers etc can make Haskell code hard to follow. But the culture of overusing unpronounceable/unmemorable operators is what makes Haskell really hard to read.

>@> --> ||| .|.

None of the above are made up, all are from real code.

Re: Programming language notation is a barrier to entry

#86

Post by klank » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:58 PM UTC

tsumnia wrote: post #84

swiley wrote: post #2

Meh Notation in any field is a barrier to entry. See programmers takes on both math and music notation that are often posted here. The thing about notation that people sometimes don't think about is that it's used by many different types of people. Some things that would be convenient when notated implicitly make thinking about other things difficult.

The issue is that no one in CS seems to care that "Notation in any field is a barrier to entry". Almost all CS Ed research presently focuses on the problem-solving skill of CS rather than the technical literacy. There is almost no interest from educators to train this literacy despite work from myself [1] and others [2] saying that explicitly training these skills improves student performance. The issue, in my opinio…

Is part of this due to an academic vs. professional dichotomy? i.e. most CS undergrads are CS undergrads to become professional developers, while most CS undergrad courses are taught with an eye towards further graduate/academic work?

Re: Programming language notation is a barrier to entry

#87

Post by the_af » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:00 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #11

swiley wrote: post #2

Meh Notation in any field is a barrier to entry. See programmers takes on both math and music notation that are often posted here. The thing about notation that people sometimes don't think about is that it's used by many different types of people. Some things that would be convenient when notated implicitly make thinking about other things difficult.

Notation is a tool for thought. You want to optimize it for the problem you're solving. Not that PL notation is optimal, but being beginner-friendly is about the last thing one should care about.

> being beginner-friendly is about the last thing one should care about

Agreed! I read in some essay (maybe one by pg, even) the following tidbit of wisdom: "I designed this for practitioners, i.e. people with more than a few weeks of experience with the language". This is what languages should strive for.

edit: almost! It was a comment by pg: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21256727

Re: Programming language notation is a barrier to entry

#88

Post by jimbob45 » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:01 PM UTC

tsumnia wrote: post #84

swiley wrote: post #2

Meh Notation in any field is a barrier to entry. See programmers takes on both math and music notation that are often posted here. The thing about notation that people sometimes don't think about is that it's used by many different types of people. Some things that would be convenient when notated implicitly make thinking about other things difficult.

The issue is that no one in CS seems to care that "Notation in any field is a barrier to entry". Almost all CS Ed research presently focuses on the problem-solving skill of CS rather than the technical literacy. There is almost no interest from educators to train this literacy despite work from myself [1] and others [2] saying that explicitly training these skills improves student performance. The issue, in my opinio…

No one seems to care? What is Python if not a referendum on unclear keywords and whitespacing?

Re: Programming language notation is a barrier to entry

#89

Post by the_af » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:03 PM UTC

In this I agree with Paul Graham (and note I don't worship the guy). When talking about some lisps, he wrote [1]:

> As names, car and cdr are great: short, and just the right visual distance apart. The only argument against them is that they're not mnemonic. But (a) more mnemonic names tend to be over-specific (not all cdrs are tails), and (b) after a week of using Lisp, car and cdr mean the two halves of a cons cell, and languages should be designed for people who've used them for more than a week.

In particular, the last sentence. I find arguments that go "but this looks confusing to a beginner!" unconvincing. Language syntax and notation should be aimed at actual practitioners, not beginners.

----

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21256727

Re: Programming language notation is a barrier to entry

#90

Post by the_af » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 5:05 PM UTC

x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #28

People are being dismissive of the premise here. But I remember when someone gave me a link to a Haskell repository. I had no idea what was going on, or what those alien symbols meant. I can only imagine that the barrier to entry for Haskell is much, much, much higher than that of an Algol descended language.

> I can only imagine that the barrier to entry for Haskell is much, much, much higher than that of an Algol descended language.

Haskell syntax is not more complex than an Algol descended language. It's only confusing if you expect an Algol descended language, for example because you're already familiar with them.