USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess • Hacker News Board

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#361

Post by vr46 » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:43 PM UTC

reader_mode wrote: post #72

philplckthun wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's fine to point out the Thunderbolt mess, or the PD vs non-PD devices (although non-PD is becoming exceedingly rare as far as I can tell at least for "larger" devices), but using the Nintendo Switch seems like a bad example in my opinion, since it explicitly does not follow all USB standards, especially in fact on charging.

Why ? You have the same plug but it's not actually compatible - this to me is a good example of confusion - I would be the first to assume you can charge it with whatever USB-C power cable available and not bother checking the docs.

Indeed, and then when you check the specs, it says USB-C!

https://www.nintendo.com/switch/tech-specs/

I was not pleased with it being an outside warranty issue, but I paid up just to get the thing fixed and back.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#362

Post by stormbrew » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:43 PM UTC

jeremymcanally wrote: post #4

Really? I find it to be a game changer for me. The fact that my laptop, Switch, iPad, and several other devices can all share a charge has made my life much easier. I can just sprinkle a few of them throughout the house and never be without power. Before it was always a hunt to find a cable, or I had to be in [x] room to charge [y] device because that's where the charger lived. Plus, I can charge my MacBook on either…

There's a lot of telephone garbling going on in a lot of the replies to this thread about the switch.

There's a really detailed post from one of the third party dock makers (genki) about all the specifics of the switch's usb-c PD implementation, including the fact that the switch uses a (nearly) bog standard usb-c pd controller chip: https://www.reddit.com/r/NintendoSwitch/comments/ckaiiv/an_e...

Just because nintendo won't warrant use of third party docks or claim compatibility doesn't mean it's not compatible. Nor does any anecdotal experience of a usb-c charger frying a switch (I've fried a dell laptop's battery with a busted usb-c cable, does that mean dells aren't conformant?).

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#363

Post by benhue » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:44 PM UTC

julianlam wrote: post #3

Sometimes it seems like I'm the only person with absolutely zero issues with USB-C. I have a Lenovo monitor that delivers power+HDMI+usbhub to my laptop, and having to only plug one thing in to access all my peripherals is amazing. I used a bog standard Anker USB-C cable for this.

So I was the same until the cable that I used with the monitor broke and I thought I could just use the same cable that shipped with my MacBook Pro (which are quite pricey), it didn't work as I had no idea you needed a cable that supported video and for a while assumed my monitor was broken. Now imagine a less technically literate person experiencing this.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#364

Post by Tepix » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:44 PM UTC

I tested all my Micro USB cables and threw away those that wouldn't allow quick charging with >5V.

Now with USB-C I'm reading some reports about problem but so far it's been good. I'm still optimistic that eventually all devices with USB C ports will support the full feature set on every port (nowadays that seems to be Thunderbolt 4, Displayport Alt etc). But that's just me being optimistic :-)

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#365

Post by JKCalhoun » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:44 PM UTC

dcchambers wrote: post #82

USB-C is mostly a mess if you try to get away using the cheapest adapters/cables you can find, that often times won't follow the spec. Most of the issues vanish if you use high-end cables/adapters from reputable manufacturers. This is a departure from the world of Micro USB where most cheap cables worked just as good as "high end" cables. There are caveats. For example, my Nintendo Switch, a major electronics device…

> mostly a mess if you try to get away using the cheapest adapters/cables you can find

Which, these days, is more or less everything you're likely to pull up on an Amazon search.

Cheap Chinese manufacturing has been amazing for providing the hobbyist with low cost electronics components but a nightmare for consumers that can often end up with something sub-par.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#366

Post by jayd16 » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:44 PM UTC

crote wrote: post #204

izacus wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would the situation be better when you'd have to explain why does his monitor have 3 different connection ports but not the 5th one he needs? Or that he's lacking the right converter cables for all different 5 possible types?

"If it fits, it works" is pretty easy to explain. An adapter cable is also easy to explain: it fits, so it will work. With USB C, there are scenarios where you can have an adapter cable and it'll still not work.

>"If it fits, it works" is pretty easy to explain.

It also isn't correct. It wasn't true as far as VGA and DVI adapters were concerned. Nor is it true for connecting two HDMI-In ports, for example.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#367

Post by cortesoft » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:45 PM UTC

jeremymcanally wrote: post #4

Really? I find it to be a game changer for me. The fact that my laptop, Switch, iPad, and several other devices can all share a charge has made my life much easier. I can just sprinkle a few of them throughout the house and never be without power. Before it was always a hunt to find a cable, or I had to be in [x] room to charge [y] device because that's where the charger lived. Plus, I can charge my MacBook on either…

Am I the only one who misses the Magsafe chargers? My kid just yesterday pulled my wife's laptop off her desk to the ground because she got caught in the charging cable.

It was such a game changer to not bend plugs/break laptops when you got the cord stuck on something.. and we gave that all up just to have one port.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#368

Post by JKCalhoun » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:45 PM UTC

dcchambers wrote: post #288

quicklime wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another caveat is that many monitors have USB-C ports, but many (most?) cables do not support video. Even my cable from a luxury brand in Cupertino doesn't support it, so it's not just about sticking to famous brands. I'm not sure how a regular consumer is supposed to understand this. In the past, it wasn't possible to plug a VGA cable into a PS/2 port. Now, you just have to know these hidden properties of each cable…

I think we need a better way to differentiate between the capabilities of the cable and port type. I like having a unified port, and I think it's ok that not all cables will do everything as a way to save cost, but it needs to be apparent to the consumer in easily identifiable manor. e.g. - USB-C - USB-C-V (with video capabilities) - USB-C-T3 and USB-C-T4 (with thunderbolt 3/4)

Or better, smart devices that can detect an insufficient cable attached and alert the user.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#369

Post by Tepix » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:46 PM UTC

FatalLogic wrote: post #64

Would it be possible for our existing USB-C interfaces (software and hardware) to provide more information to the user? I mean, could the UI tell us: (1) Your external device is and it requests power at 12V, minimum 15W, up to 40W, and it requests data at up to 100Mbps down/5Mbps up (2) Your cable promises to accept power at up to 25W, and data at up to 40Mbps bidirectional (3) I can offer power up to 60W, and data u…

It would be nice. But just trying to buy a DisplayPort 1.4 cable tells you that companies selling cables would rather sell you a "4K" DP cable instead of referring to the standard, leaving you non the wiser.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#370

Post by CogentHedgehog » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

texasbigdata wrote: post #200

CogentHedgehog wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same, USB-C is one of those things that for me just works. I buy USB-PD chargers and cables from reputable brands, and everything just charges. When I use the cables for data transfer, it just works -- no muss or fuss like there were with some of the charge-only converter cables for charging micro-USB devices. Now if I were using Thunderbolt 3, yeah, you need a higher-end cable and there are restrictions on cable len…

Ah so that’s why the thunderbolt cables are 1.5 feet :)

Yes, the signal degrades more with longer cables which reduces the usable bandwidth. Short cables up to about 0.5m (1.5 feet) can use the full 40 Gbps. Slightly longer cables up to 1m can still carry enough signal for Thunderbolt 3 but usually at reduced speeds (20 Gbps).

Above about 1m (3 feet) a passive cable usually isn't good enough for TB3 connections and you have to use a more expensive "active" cable. Active cables have built in signal-boosting circuits -- they're amplifying and re-transmitting signals, not just passing them over the wires.