USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess • Hacker News Board

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#161

Post by dgellow » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 2:46 PM UTC

jeremymcanally wrote: post #4

Really? I find it to be a game changer for me. The fact that my laptop, Switch, iPad, and several other devices can all share a charge has made my life much easier. I can just sprinkle a few of them throughout the house and never be without power. Before it was always a hunt to find a cable, or I had to be in [x] room to charge [y] device because that's where the charger lived. Plus, I can charge my MacBook on either…

> Plus, I can charge my MacBook on either side, so that's basically life changing on its own. :)

You may want to read this stack exchange answer: https://apple.stackexchange.com/a/363933

> TLDR; If your MacBook Pro runs hot or shows a high % CPU for the kernel task, try charging on the right and not on the left.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#162

Post by crazygringo » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 2:46 PM UTC

I'm just surprised there are still a lot of mainstream accessories that aren't available in USB-C.

I bought a Logitech C920 webcam the other day (the most pouplar model)... and it's still only available in USB-A. If you want a Logitech webcam with USB-C, you've got to pay over twice as much for a model like their StreamCam.

I'm happy to use dongles for HDMI or Ethernet when I have to. But the fact that I still have to use dongles with brand-new devices that are still only made in USB-A seems ridiculous. At this rate, I don't see how we're ever going to move on.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#163

Post by derefr » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 2:46 PM UTC

reader_mode wrote: post #122

derefr wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it could have happened just as well with any other plug. It could have been a non-conforming micro-USB charging port. Either way, it would have nothing to do with “the mess that is USB-C” (i.e. the inability to identify which of the various wire protocols that work over USB-C cables that a USB-C port follows/supports), because such a port isn’t following any of the USB-C-cable compatible standards. It’d be li…

>Because it could have happened just as well with any other plug. It could have been a non-conforming micro-USB charging port. But if you have a standard aren't you supposed to enforce stuff like this ? Precisely to avoid the confusion and protect your standard.

The USB Consortium’s licensing strategy is to restrict what people can label with the USB logo, by holding trademark over that logo. You then have to work out an arrangement with them, in order for your hardware to proclaim itself as USB-compatible by using the logo. This is their “in” to ensure you’re doing USB correctly.

The Nintendo charging port is not labelled with a USB logo. It’s fundamentally not a USB-C port. It doesn’t make any claim to obey any standard. The USB Consortium was not involved; nor do they have a legal right to get involved, if Nintendo has no interest in putting that USB logo on their product.

Interestingly (to me), this seems to be a central point in Nintendo’s business model: they don’t do licensing fees, if they can at-all help it. They’re willing to break compatibility with some standard, if that’s what it takes to avoid having to pay someone a fee for every unit sold. That’s not exactly why the GameCube’s discs aren’t mini-DVDs (that’s more a DRM thing); but it is why none of their peripherals so far have had a Bluetooth logo on them, despite being in essence Bluetooth peripherals (but ones that sit in a separate Bluetooth “namespace” such that you need a customized Bluetooth driver to talk to them; presumably because putting those devices into the regular Bluetooth namespace would involve doing something that infringes on the Bluetooth Special Interest Group’s IP.) It’s also, way back when, why Nintendo dropped the deal with Sony to make the Nintendo PlayStation — they didn’t want to have to pay the licensing fees for printing CD-ROMs!

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#164

Post by jk700 » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 2:47 PM UTC

tootie wrote: post #29

Isn't the magic of USB-C Power Delivery that it can negotiate a voltage? Previous iterations of USB only operated at 5V and USB-C can operate anywhere from 5-20V.

It's not magic when step down DC-DC converters take as much space as power negotiation crap and all that's really needed is single 20 volts. Look at new ATX standardization development with proposals to leave only 12 volts, dropping 5 and 3.3 - that's the right way to standardize on power delivery. What USB-C is doing is not standardization, but an attempt to undermine standardization to profit from selling expensive cables and locking people into brands, just as device manufacturers did with non standard ports for mobile phones in the past and were eventually fined for it and forced to use standardized USB power delivery.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#165

Post by sandworm101 » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 2:48 PM UTC

wlesieutre wrote: post #74

sandworm101 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same connector, but different standards. We will likely still have to buy new cables/devices to take advantage of the new features.

Or you can not take advantage of the new features? I didn't throw out my USB 3 flash drives when USB 3.1 came out. There's no compatibility problem here that would make you change anything at all, just ignore it.

Tell that to switch owners who have had thier devices fried by incomparable chargers. Tell that to the devices that claim "not charging" unless plugged into chargers with specific features. Usb c is a compatability mess. I would not assume backwards compatability to be universal.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#166

Post by NelsonMinar » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 2:48 PM UTC

There's a simpler but similar problem with HDMI cables now. Over the years new versions of HDMI keep coming out with higher bandwidth to support higher resolutions. But there's no way to look at a cable and tell what HDMI version it supports. These days HDMI 2.0 is minimal but you want HDMI 2.1 if you want to support HDR10 or anything over 4K@60. There's also a bunch of side features in HDMI (like CEC) that are not reliably implemented.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#167

Post by leetcrew » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 2:48 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #134

leetcrew wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mainly that all the usb-c cables you sprinkle across your house might not have the same functionality. this is a problem if you expect things to be like USB2 where you can collect all these random cables and power blocks and use them interchangeably. this wasn't always true with USB2 anyway, with all the out of spec "fast charge" implementations. there are a lot of optional features and speed tiers for USB3, which…

And how exactly are you going to keep track of which cable is which? It might not be so terrible if they came labeled with symbols or letters or colors or something. But there is absolutely no way to know which cable does what once you've taken it out of its packaging that (hopefully) lists its specifications correctly. Good luck remembering which white cable was which.

> And how exactly are you going to keep track of which cable is which?

it's really not that hard. for travel, I have three identical cables that work with all my portable devices. for devices that spend their whole lives in one place, I use the cable it came with.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#168

Post by JAlexoid » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 2:48 PM UTC

wslh wrote: post #143

jeremymcanally wrote: post #4

Really? I find it to be a game changer for me. The fact that my laptop, Switch, iPad, and several other devices can all share a charge has made my life much easier. I can just sprinkle a few of them throughout the house and never be without power. Before it was always a hunt to find a cable, or I had to be in [x] room to charge [y] device because that's where the charger lived. Plus, I can charge my MacBook on either…

I agree completely and we should blame Nintendo for the Nintendo Switch. Speaking about Thunderbolt via USB-C it is incredible to sit in my work desk, connect a single cable to the notebook and suddenly having a desktop computer with three external monitors, keyboard, mouse, and many other ports. I have not tried an eGPU yet but will be happier if thunderbolt evolves faster and gives more extensibility options to not…

Until they manage to get Ethernet through that cable without a converter - it's no bueno.

As for an eGPU user - the issue with eGPU is the cost of setup, but Thunderbolt docks are also stupid expensive(above $200 for one). I built my eGPU setup for $350(PowerColor+RX550), as a good Thunderbolt dock is in the range of $300.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#169

Post by dafoex » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 2:49 PM UTC

atoav wrote: post #13

So all issues with USB-C boil down to - Apple made some different standard that uses the same Plug - Power supplies come at different power ratings (who would have thought!) Of course this is not ideal, but it is already better than not being able to get _any_ 3rd part power supply at all.

Also the so-called "killer app" for USB-C - the HDMI output - just doesn't work on all devices, and there's barely any way of knowing beforehand.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#170

Post by mikepurvis » Thu, Oct 01, 2020, 2:49 PM UTC

cameronh90 wrote: post #118

vr46 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aha - you may find that your Switch CANNOT in fact share a charge - Nintendo's port is not necessarily safe to use with anything but its supplied charger. And I've just learned this lesson with a $60 bill from Nintendo repair after the port went pop and couldn't charge the device. I only have reputable chargers in the house from Apple and one from Anker aside from the Nintendo's own. All my apple kit works fine off t…

I charge my Switch with various USB PD chargers (mostly Anker but also Apple, Google and others) and haven't had a problem so far. I was trying to find some information about what would cause PD-compliant chargers to fry the Switch. It appears that while the switch is PD-compliant itself, they used a slightly non-standard connector that reduces tolerances and could, in some situations (most likely worn cables) cause…

I don't actually own a Switch, but my partner and I both charge our laptops (mine a Dell XPS, hers a MacBook) from the same after-market USB-C charging bricks. I don't love that it's like this, but basically the product page just lists every known-to-work device, including Nintendo Switch:

https://www.amazon.ca/Charger-Adapter-Replacement-Thinkpad-M...

Now, I'm a cheapskate, so most of my electronics are older devices, and as a consequence we still also have various other cables kicking around— Lightning for both our iPhones and wireless earbuds, Micro USB for Kindle and PS4 controllers, even Mini USB for a few random devices.

But as far as USB-C, I would attribute the current mess to growing pains. For a few more years, charger pages will explicit list the products they work with, and eventually it will settle down to a list of must-work-with products for all chargers, and any new products with be tested to ensure that they work in the same ways as one or more of the items on that list of known-working products. Didn't HDMI have pretty much this exact issue with EDID and other chaos, until everyone basically agreed that whatever Sony was doing was the right thing and they'd copy them?

The main losers here are people trying to do new ground-up implementations, since they can't just work from the standard; they also need expensive consultants to tell them the precise subset of the standard is the actual part they can depend on. But for end users, the trend is toward an overall state of reasonable compatibility, with non-working devices quickly acquiring a reputation as such and being shunned out of the marketplace.