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French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

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Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#481
post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the fact is that beyond a couple of weeks the mother's "loss in productivity" is just as artificial as the father's Yes, this is true. Neither the actual mother nor the actual father is required to care for the baby after delivery. Believe it or not, this is how adoption works. That is one half of the point I've been making this whole time. But now, if you go back and read my original comment, you will see the…

> Yes, this is true. So what happened to the "it's actually just biological" argument? > how extending the leave of someone who is already on one is much easier than setting up two leave-of-absences So your argument relies on that it's more of a hassle for managers to arrange two parental leaves rather than one even though they have ~6 months to prepare? This might be the weakest rationalization I've ever heard. This…

Ok, so there are two problems. The first is that you continue to put words in my mouth and project stances onto me that I have not taken. The second is that I think we fundamentally disagree on an important issue: what constitutes sexism.

> So what happened to the "it's actually just biological" argument?

It's still there. The question is "why is the default to give women maternity leave and not have like equal maternity and paternity leave or something?". You (and GC) are claiming this is rooted in sexism. I am claiming it is rooted in biology. Making decisions based on actual physiological differences between the sexes is not sexism. Not letting women participate in men's boxing because they'll get destroyed is not sexism, it is recognizing that there are literal biological/physiological differences between the sexes.

> So your argument relies on that it's more of a hassle for managers to arrange two parental leaves rather than one even though they have ~6 months to prepare? This might be the weakest rationalization I've ever heard...

What argument? My only argument is that this is not sexist. In order for something to be sexist, you need to be discriminating based on sex. Discriminating based on time lost is not sexism. "Small" differences have outsized effects when compounded across millions of people. Sure, if you take a single instance of this and look at it it doesn't seem like much. Unfortuntately though, we're talking about society-wide effects here. We're talking about why a society as a whole has adopted certain norms, not why an individual manager might do something. And honestly you're underestimating how much of a pain it can be to temporarily (that's how leave works) replace a valuable team member. You can't just actually replace them because they'll be coming back eventually. Do you hire and train up a new person only to fire them after the leave? Or keep them on when the other returns, so now you have two people when previously you only needed one? Or do you try your best to foist their work onto existing team members even though hopefully the entire reason that employee existed in the first place was because their work could not be easily handled by others. It's not easy.

> This "well, it's more of a hassle to managers" when it's usually entirely different workplaces, different managers and 6 months to prepare it is frankly laughable

Well, yes, exactly? Replacing two different people in two different workplaces with different managers is more of a hassle than if it was one manager and one team replacing two people. Thanks for helping make my point for me.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#482
post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, this is true. So what happened to the "it's actually just biological" argument? > how extending the leave of someone who is already on one is much easier than setting up two leave-of-absences So your argument relies on that it's more of a hassle for managers to arrange two parental leaves rather than one even though they have ~6 months to prepare? This might be the weakest rationalization I've ever heard. This…

Ok, so there are two problems. The first is that you continue to put words in my mouth and project stances onto me that I have not taken. The second is that I think we fundamentally disagree on an important issue: what constitutes sexism. > So what happened to the "it's actually just biological" argument? It's still there. The question is "why is the default to give women maternity leave and not have like equal mater…

Your habit of "you haven't read", "you put words in my mouth" without substantiating either of them is pretty annoying.

If you perpetuate, support, or defend a system that knowingly creates an unequal outcome depending on the persons sex, you're a sexist. This isn't something that's undetermined, it's a fact. We know that if there's only leave for the mother, the mother is disadvantaged in the work place.

To take it really slow:

* Two people get a child, mother and father.

* The mother needs a couple of weeks after child birth to recuperate.

* The mother can take additional leave beyond that, the father can't take any leave at all.

* Whoops! Who's gonna work and who's gonna take care of the child now?!

This is a sexist system since it blatantly throws the responsibility of child-rearing on to the mother. Not granting fathers parental leave REQUIRES mothers to do it. And the only way this is accepted and seen as a default is because of traditional, sexist, gender roles where the mother is assumed to do the child-rearing.

The whole "it's more administration!" argument is just so pathetic that I won't bother commenting on it any more. Not even the most right-wing nut here in Sweden would try to argue that the administrative overhead is a significant problem. You also just skipped the actual point in my last paragraph - the question about proportionality.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#483
post #66
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is ... based on your own observation and experience?

Two happy kids with a likely third. My experience and observations and discussions with other parents.

Don’t have kids myself but I’ll point out that due to the natural social filtering of those around us whom we spend time with being more similar to ourselves than not, your perspective may be more valuable as a data-point .... though I suppose to settle this we’d need to look at how rigorous the study was, etc.

Thank you for your thoughtful response to my question :).

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#484
post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hidden subtext in this discussion is that the US does not do these kind of things because of their culture. The US is not a poor country. It is in fact one of the richest countries in the world. It's a political decision not to take care of their people. There are countries that really are poor that do a better job at this than the US.

But I'm not talking about the US.

I suspect many others here are. And I very clearly was. Exactly because the US is the most notorious country not providing these kind of things, despite being one of the richest countries in the world: that's a cultural issue.

Meanwhile, many countries much poorer than the US do a lot more. Maybe not quite as much as Scandinavian countries, but they do something.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#485
post #7

Meanwhile in Germany people get 14months paid leave. Where neither parent can take more than 12.

Before people think that this policy is all roses, a close friend of mine is the CEO of a multi billion dollar international business. They don’t hire anyone from France because the French government makes it so difficult to fire a bad hire. Maybe you could argue that the French are better off without them, but people love working for them and they have great pay and benefits. I’m sure there are a number of companies…

No this the state will continue paying you. Companys just need to hold the place ready for return. But yeah jump to conclusion which suits your ideology.
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