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Programming language notation is a barrier to entry

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Re: Programming language notation is a barrier to entry

#11

Post by TeMPOraL »

swiley wrote: post #2

Meh Notation in any field is a barrier to entry. See programmers takes on both math and music notation that are often posted here. The thing about notation that people sometimes don't think about is that it's used by many different types of people. Some things that would be convenient when notated implicitly make thinking about other things difficult.

Notation is a tool for thought. You want to optimize it for the problem you're solving. Not that PL notation is optimal, but being beginner-friendly is about the last thing one should care about.

Re: Programming language notation is a barrier to entry

#12

Post by 082349872349872 »

DJBunnies wrote: post #3

> Adopting standard notations across the field could offer huge benefits They skipped the related xkcd. https://xkcd.com/927/

1968 on adopting standard notation: https://assets.octodon.social/media_attachments/files/002/76...

(judging by the picture of Susie at her desk, development environments' handwriting recognition was awesome in 1968, which explains Landin's 1966 comment in Next 700:

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~crary/819-f09/Landin66.pdf p. 160

> "[The offside rule] is based on vertical alignment, not character width, and hence is equally appropriate in handwritten, typeset or typed texts.")

Re: Programming language notation is a barrier to entry

#15

Post by ht_th »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #11
swiley wrote: post #2

Meh Notation in any field is a barrier to entry. See programmers takes on both math and music notation that are often posted here. The thing about notation that people sometimes don't think about is that it's used by many different types of people. Some things that would be convenient when notated implicitly make thinking about other things difficult.

Notation is a tool for thought. You want to optimize it for the problem you're solving. Not that PL notation is optimal, but being beginner-friendly is about the last thing one should care about.

Except in a programming language designed for learning programming. Ideally, we would have a good educational language with a clear path mapping the notation from that language to more common notation used in programming languages designed for computer science, software engineering, or software development.

Re: Programming language notation is a barrier to entry

#16

Post by hehetrthrthrjn »

The comments actually hit on the real solution to notation issues: it should be executable.

It might require a library or file of accompanying "assumptions" that enables a concise "display" notation that appears in the text, but it would allow anyone to examine and understand what was being specified by having a common, concrete base of reference and the ability to query and examine it from whatever angle works for the reader.

Re: Programming language notation is a barrier to entry

#17

Post by FartyMcFarter »

Waterluvian wrote: post #10
swiley wrote: post #2

Meh Notation in any field is a barrier to entry. See programmers takes on both math and music notation that are often posted here. The thing about notation that people sometimes don't think about is that it's used by many different types of people. Some things that would be convenient when notated implicitly make thinking about other things difficult.

And just like programming, there are versions of those with easier notation to ease entry. Anyone remember all the different ways music was represented as they grew up? What about guitar tabs? I remember simplified math as a kid. I think this hits on the right approach, which already exists: different languages with different complexity levels for notation.

It's interesting that guitar tabs are quite close to old tablature notation, which was used for lots of string instruments such as the lute. Renaissance lute music is usually tabbed.

Re: Programming language notation is a barrier to entry

#20

Post by LandR »

rkangel wrote: post #6
coldtea wrote: post #4

> But at its worst, PL notation obfuscates: a page of symbols is an opaque barrier to entry. The assumption here is that this is a bad thing. But there's a reason we have doors, gates, locks and so on -- other "barriers to entry".

> But there's a reason we have doors, gates, locks and so on -- other "barriers to entry" Yes, because we don't want people to get into our house. Are you seriously suggesting a world where we want to make it harder for people to understand programming language literature?

> Are you seriously suggesting a world where we want to make it harder for people to understand programming language literature?

I'd like the barrier for entry to be a bit higher if I'm honest. Maybe then I wouldn't have to work with code created by so many idiots.

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