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French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

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Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#471

Post by fastball »

jahaja wrote: post #470
fastball wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please re-read all of my comments with the fresh understanding (though it really shouldn't be as this was obvious from context and even explicitly stated) that I'm not talking about child-rearing. I'm talking about the pre/perinatal period when I am talking about a loss in productivity that women face by necessity due to biological reality.

I realise that you're now being deliberately obtuse but still; what is parental leave if not child-rearing? The biological part is a couple of weeks, child-rearing that parental leave is a part of is for at least 12 months until daycare can take over. Fathers can and should do that as well. So in the end the amount of time away from work should be the roughly equal. So once again, if this sums up to equal portions aw…

I am not being deliberately obtuse about anything, though I am starting to question your reading comprehension if I'm totally honest. Most of the questions in your comment can be answered if you'd care to actually read over my previous comments again. And then there is the last bit.

> Please let me know why this statement isn't true:

>> To assume that men need not take part in child-rearing before the child is ready for daycare is a sexist assumption.

This can be answered quite simply with: that statement is in fact true. Not sure why you feel like I should answer such a question, as I haven't implied anything like that.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#472

Post by jahaja »

fastball wrote: post #471
jahaja wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I realise that you're now being deliberately obtuse but still; what is parental leave if not child-rearing? The biological part is a couple of weeks, child-rearing that parental leave is a part of is for at least 12 months until daycare can take over. Fathers can and should do that as well. So in the end the amount of time away from work should be the roughly equal. So once again, if this sums up to equal portions aw…

I am not being deliberately obtuse about anything, though I am starting to question your reading comprehension if I'm totally honest. Most of the questions in your comment can be answered if you'd care to actually read over my previous comments again. And then there is the last bit. > Please let me know why this statement isn't true: >> To assume that men need not take part in child-rearing before the child is ready…

You have implied that:

> Any "disadvantage" occurs naturally as a result of loss in real usefulness (for a time) when it comes to employment. Now, you want to compensate for that natural loss in productivity by mandating that men artificially lose productivity in the form of paternity leave.

You call men caring for the child as artificial. But the fact is that beyond a couple of weeks the mother's "loss in productivity" is just as artificial as the father's, or do you actually think that women usually start to work again after just a couple of weeks on average?

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#473

Post by Gibbon1 »

jahaja wrote: post #472
fastball wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not being deliberately obtuse about anything, though I am starting to question your reading comprehension if I'm totally honest. Most of the questions in your comment can be answered if you'd care to actually read over my previous comments again. And then there is the last bit. > Please let me know why this statement isn't true: >> To assume that men need not take part in child-rearing before the child is ready…

You have implied that: > Any "disadvantage" occurs naturally as a result of loss in real usefulness (for a time) when it comes to employment. Now, you want to compensate for that natural loss in productivity by mandating that men artificially lose productivity in the form of paternity leave. You call men caring for the child as artificial. But the fact is that beyond a couple of weeks the mother's "loss in productivi…

I hate pulling the I've been around for a long time card. But I'll pull it now.

What I noticed is the time out for having children doesn't really interrupt a woman's working career that much. Not to mention women typically work up till the 7 to 8th month of pregnancy. So what gone for six months, two years? Out of 40-45 years of working? That's a couple of percent.

But boy does the system punish them for it.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#474

Post by fastball »

jahaja wrote: post #472
fastball wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not being deliberately obtuse about anything, though I am starting to question your reading comprehension if I'm totally honest. Most of the questions in your comment can be answered if you'd care to actually read over my previous comments again. And then there is the last bit. > Please let me know why this statement isn't true: >> To assume that men need not take part in child-rearing before the child is ready…

You have implied that: > Any "disadvantage" occurs naturally as a result of loss in real usefulness (for a time) when it comes to employment. Now, you want to compensate for that natural loss in productivity by mandating that men artificially lose productivity in the form of paternity leave. You call men caring for the child as artificial. But the fact is that beyond a couple of weeks the mother's "loss in productivi…

> But the fact is that beyond a couple of weeks the mother's "loss in productivity" is just as artificial as the father's

Yes, this is true. Neither the actual mother nor the actual father is required to care for the baby after delivery. Believe it or not, this is how adoption works. That is one half of the point I've been making this whole time.

But now, if you go back and read my original comment, you will see the bit about how extending the leave of someone who is already on one is much easier than setting up two leave-of-absences. This has nothing to do with sex/sexism and "believing women should stay home and raise the kids" and everything to do with the fact that this is just the reality of replacing someone with actual responsibility. If you've never been responsible for replacing someone who quit/took leave, then this might not be obvious to you, but it takes much more time and effort to replace two people for T/2 amount of time (each) than it does to replace one person for T amount of time. Hopefully you can see how this then relates to maternity/paternity leave.

And that is the second half of the point I've been making since my original comment.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#475

Post by rosege »

chromanoid wrote: post #193
rosege wrote: post #126

I love my dog probably more than some parents love their kids. Its too bad you can't get doggy leave if you don't have children.

Your dog won't pay taxes in the future. And there is also some "light" difference between reproduction and having a pet. For welcoming a dog or stuff like that there is minimum paid annual leave in developed countries.

My dog also won't have the carbon footprint of another human on the planet.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#476

Post by rosege »

gspr wrote: post #215
rosege wrote: post #126

I love my dog probably more than some parents love their kids. Its too bad you can't get doggy leave if you don't have children.

> I love my dog probably more than some parents love their kids. The need for parental leave is not based on the amount of love someone shows.

No its a reward for bringing another person onto this over crowded planet

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#477

Post by chromanoid »

rosege wrote: post #475
chromanoid wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your dog won't pay taxes in the future. And there is also some "light" difference between reproduction and having a pet. For welcoming a dog or stuff like that there is minimum paid annual leave in developed countries.

My dog also won't have the carbon footprint of another human on the planet.

Of course not, but pets like dogs are (to some extent) a luxury that do have a footprint that is not to be ignored (see https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2017/08/02/whats-yo...). You are probably the only person who really benefits from your dog. So it's somewhat selfish to get one in this regard.

Human beings on the other hand will care for us when we are old and senile. They will contribute to society. They will build the future. And if we don't give them a good loving start, the future they build will probably more selfish. Reproduction happens anyway so paid parental leave just increases the well-being not only of the parents but also of their children.

Beside that without human beings the future is irrelevant, because there is no human being who cares for it. If we all stop having children at some point in the future, how many people will care about carbon footprints anymore? I mean the animal world will find its way anyway, regardless of what we leave behind.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#478

Post by chromanoid »

rosege wrote: post #476
gspr wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I love my dog probably more than some parents love their kids. The need for parental leave is not based on the amount of love someone shows.

No its a reward for bringing another person onto this over crowded planet

No. It's a present to the newborn child. See also https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5330336/ and this too: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/20/paid-paternity...

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#479

Post by jahaja »

fastball wrote: post #474
jahaja wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have implied that: > Any "disadvantage" occurs naturally as a result of loss in real usefulness (for a time) when it comes to employment. Now, you want to compensate for that natural loss in productivity by mandating that men artificially lose productivity in the form of paternity leave. You call men caring for the child as artificial. But the fact is that beyond a couple of weeks the mother's "loss in productivi…

> But the fact is that beyond a couple of weeks the mother's "loss in productivity" is just as artificial as the father's Yes, this is true. Neither the actual mother nor the actual father is required to care for the baby after delivery. Believe it or not, this is how adoption works. That is one half of the point I've been making this whole time. But now, if you go back and read my original comment, you will see the…

> Yes, this is true.

So what happened to the "it's actually just biological" argument?

> how extending the leave of someone who is already on one is much easier than setting up two leave-of-absences

So your argument relies on that it's more of a hassle for managers to arrange two parental leaves rather than one even though they have ~6 months to prepare? This might be the weakest rationalization I've ever heard.

This is blatantly sexist also. "Well, it's easier to just extend one, and whoops, this just happens to always be the mother". The result of this strange rationalization is of course a deep skew to mothers being home and bearing the brunt of the negative effects of it.

This "well, it's more of a hassle to managers" when it's usually entirely different workplaces, different managers and 6 months to prepare it is frankly laughable. How could you think that that is of even remotely proportional importance to the negative effects of always extending the mother's leave?

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#480

Post by andrepd »

mcv wrote: post #462
andrepd wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's not a matter of money, it's a matter of culture. Any wealthy country can afford this. ???

The hidden subtext in this discussion is that the US does not do these kind of things because of their culture. The US is not a poor country. It is in fact one of the richest countries in the world. It's a political decision not to take care of their people. There are countries that really are poor that do a better job at this than the US.

But I'm not talking about the US.
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