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Cheerleading, Monopolies and Sexual Predators

mattstoller.substack.com

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Re: Cheerleading, Monopolies and Sexual Predators

#81

Post by opwieurposiu »

falcolas wrote: post #76
opwieurposiu wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you explain to a child that something is valuable but should not have a price? I am worried "love is free" is dangerously adjacent to "sex is cheap", the opposite of what I want to convey. Maybe the "price" in this analogy is time or commitment? Avoid the whole market comparison? Open to suggestions here.

That her sexuality is hers, and hers alone. It's hers to do with as she wishes. That nobody - whether they be friends, family, or strangers - is entitled to her sexuality. That it's priceless - it's not something that can be sold (or held for randsom), no matter the price. Even in marriage, it's still hers. She can always say no, no matter how pretty the house, how rich the husband. And just as importantly - though p…

Thank you for your compassionate comment. It always helps me to think about these things in writing. I can see a lot of merit in your ideas.

Re: Cheerleading, Monopolies and Sexual Predators

#82

Post by jtbayly »

falcolas wrote: post #72
jtbayly wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd rather devalue? Then it doesn't matter if somebody else takes it by force. It's nothing of value.

It's not a commodity that can be bought or sold. It's hers, no matter how much (or how little) someone pays. > Then it doesn't matter if somebody else takes it by force. It's nothing of value. This is a rather chilling position to try and argue for.

Exactly. That’s why I’m flabbergasted that you are arguing for pretending as though it has no value.

If it’s hers...

and if it is valuable...

or even if just her ability to choose what to do with it is valuable (ie letting her choose how much to value it)...

then it is appropriate to teach her how to protect it.

If it is inappropriate to teach her how to protect it (because some feminist somewhere declared by fiat that it would be victim blaming to do so), then the only conclusion that can be drawn is that it has no value. She must never be taught to value it. She must never be taught to protect it. And thus, her choice is made for her: it has no value, and as long as those exist who choose to take it by force, her desire is meaningless. Society has decided she may not value it out lest other people have their feelings hurt because they lost theirs.

Re: Cheerleading, Monopolies and Sexual Predators

#83

Post by mcguire »

whatshisface wrote: post #78
mcguire wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the merchants stay away, the navy won't care about the pirates.

Forgetting for a moment about the analogy, if you identified that an island had a really bad piracy problem, your solution would be to... send all of the merchant ships past it? That's extremely Machiavellian, to say the least.

Perhaps. But publishing warnings and then saying, "Job done!" isn't very appealing either. (https://icc-ccs.org/index.php/piracy-reporting-centre/prone-...)

Re: Cheerleading, Monopolies and Sexual Predators

#84

Post by whatshisface »

mcguire wrote: post #83
whatshisface wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgetting for a moment about the analogy, if you identified that an island had a really bad piracy problem, your solution would be to... send all of the merchant ships past it? That's extremely Machiavellian, to say the least.

Perhaps. But publishing warnings and then saying, "Job done!" isn't very appealing either. ( https://icc-ccs.org/index.php/piracy-reporting-centre/prone-... )

Hence the part about the royal navy.

Re: Cheerleading, Monopolies and Sexual Predators

#85

Post by falcolas »

jtbayly wrote: post #82
falcolas wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a commodity that can be bought or sold. It's hers, no matter how much (or how little) someone pays. > Then it doesn't matter if somebody else takes it by force. It's nothing of value. This is a rather chilling position to try and argue for.

Exactly. That’s why I’m flabbergasted that you are arguing for pretending as though it has no value. If it’s hers... and if it is valuable... or even if just her ability to choose what to do with it is valuable (ie letting her choose how much to value it)... then it is appropriate to teach her how to protect it. If it is inappropriate to teach her how to protect it (because some feminist somewhere declared by fiat th…

There's a difference between value and price. The parent was putting a price on her sexuality (marriage and a house). I'm saying that you shouldn't put any price on it.

A thing isn't valuable just because it has a price; and conversely something valuable doesn't need to have a price.

Re: Cheerleading, Monopolies and Sexual Predators

#86

Post by anonAndOn »

starkred wrote: post #29
jjoonathan wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't cancel a monopoly, so the monopoly doesn't have to care. It's not a conflation, it's a direct manifestation of their power.

Serious question: if there were competing companies involved in Cheerleading - Varsity vs. Nike or something - do you think sexual predators goes away? I have trouble believing that.

If Nike (or any competition for that matter) advertises ALL personnel involved with kids must pass thorough background check, how long do you think it will take before Varsity does the same? Failure to do so would be a death knell for Varsity.

Re: Cheerleading, Monopolies and Sexual Predators

#87

Post by otikik »

opwieurposiu wrote: post #14
takbw4234 wrote: post #4

Daily reminder that any young female-driven competitive venture (fashion, sports, academics, acting in the movie industry) is filled to the brim with sexual predators: coaches, judges, trainers, consultants, marketers, agents and so on. Do not ever put your daughter in a situation where she can be pressured by older men to do what they want in order to advance. She doesn't need a gold medal or be world famous, she ne…

My daughter is only two, not sure what I will do when the time comes to discuss this stuff. I need some way to make her understand that her sexuality is a valuable thing, and she should demand a high price for it. Ideally a marriage and a house.

Sorry but this is a very bad take.

> sexuality is a valuable thing

Yes. It can be a source of pleasure. But its value isn't transactional.

There is one group which assigns transactional value to sex, though: Sex workers.

> a marriage and a house.

”In a game of hypothetical questions, Lord Beaverbrook asked a visiting Yankee actress: ‘Would you live with a stranger if he paid you one million pounds?’ She said she would. ‘And if be paid you five pounds?’ The irate lady fumed: ‘Five pounds. What do you think I am?’ Beaverbrook replied: ‘We’ve already established that. Now we are just haggling over the price.”

To be clear: I have nothing against sex workers (I have lots of problems with the system that enslaves and forces lots them). But by giving monetary value to her sexuality, you would be (probably involuntarily) nudging her in that direction.

I don't have a daughter, but I have a 4yo son. Some day I will have to have "the talk". I have thought about what I would tell him.

I would try explain to him that his sexuality is valuable, but not as a merchandise, but because it is good for him. Like food, or water. That masturbation is natural, but there are social norms. Where to get porn and how to clean after himself (just like when pooping). What consent is. And rape, and pedophiles. What STIs are. I will answer all the anatomy and ... mechanical questions, to the best of my ability. I will explain how a woman gets pregnant, how that can ruin their life, how to avoid it, that they can tell me, and what to do if they don't want to tell me. I will encourage him to discover what he's attracted to, and which social norms to ignore on this regard. I will buy him a box of condoms, put it on an drawer, and refill it when empty.

I would suggest you do the same with your daughter. Perhaps we are too socially different to do exactly the same but: educate her like you would educate a son.

Re: Cheerleading, Monopolies and Sexual Predators

#88

Post by [deleted] »

jtbayly wrote: post #82
falcolas wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a commodity that can be bought or sold. It's hers, no matter how much (or how little) someone pays. > Then it doesn't matter if somebody else takes it by force. It's nothing of value. This is a rather chilling position to try and argue for.

Exactly. That’s why I’m flabbergasted that you are arguing for pretending as though it has no value. If it’s hers... and if it is valuable... or even if just her ability to choose what to do with it is valuable (ie letting her choose how much to value it)... then it is appropriate to teach her how to protect it. If it is inappropriate to teach her how to protect it (because some feminist somewhere declared by fiat th…

[deleted]

Re: Cheerleading, Monopolies and Sexual Predators

#89

Post by jtbayly »

falcolas wrote: post #85
jtbayly wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. That’s why I’m flabbergasted that you are arguing for pretending as though it has no value. If it’s hers... and if it is valuable... or even if just her ability to choose what to do with it is valuable (ie letting her choose how much to value it)... then it is appropriate to teach her how to protect it. If it is inappropriate to teach her how to protect it (because some feminist somewhere declared by fiat th…

There's a difference between value and price. The parent was putting a price on her sexuality (marriage and a house). I'm saying that you shouldn't put any price on it. A thing isn't valuable just because it has a price; and conversely something valuable doesn't need to have a price.

Then presumably you agree that girls should be taught to protect themselves and that one of the ways to protect yourself is to avoid places where known rapists hang out with nobody to hold them accountable?

Re: Cheerleading, Monopolies and Sexual Predators

#90

Post by watwut »

jacobwg wrote: post #46
watwut wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Situational awareness the way you described it means a girl must avoid ambitions and competitive situation. The issue with "properly handle them if they arise" is that ability to properly handle things strongly depends on whether complains are taken seriously (ideally long before it all escalates to high abuse) or not.

> Situational awareness [...] means a girl must avoid ambitions and competitive situation... That's one judgement call to make, but not the only one. There are lots of different factors that could affect any given situation, but certain situations are safer than others, and there are ways to increase or decrease the safety of many given activities. > [the] ability to properly handle things strongly depends on whether…

I mean "Do not ever put your daughter in a situation where she can be pressured by older men to do what they want in order to advance." honestly means that daughter needs to be stay at home mom.

Any just a bit ambitious position have older men in position to pressure. And low paid jobs are ripe for abuse like that, because employees have zero power. I dont mean to say that abuse is everywhere. But the above quote does not describe some kind of unusual rare situation. It is pretty much everywhere.

Also, the parents believing is not the only nor the most important people who needs to believe. The parents taking their daughter away are not making abuser go away. Abuser just moves on another target. That is not solving the problem, that is just shifting victims until one does not know how to talk about it or have to make hard choice or is otherwise unprotected.

The issue with these institutions typically are years of cover ups of evidence.

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