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Google/Fitbit will monetise health data and harm consumers

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Re: Google/Fitbit will monetise health data and harm consumers

#121

I'm going to come across here as an odd outlier, and that's OK. I accept it. Being in IT for 20 years has shown me that none of these companies can be trusted. Since I have to have a mobile phone, I chose Apple. I don't believe that there are "lesser evils". You're evil or you're not. Full stop. I do my best to use open source tools (save iPhone) in my house. Granted, there are no open source TVs, Roku's, etc, but th…

> I'll admit I bought a flip phone for the purposes of avoiding any virus apps that may be required in future should that happen. I just want to stay off the radar and I have a right to do so. iOS 13.7+ can track your location for Covid contact tracing, even if there is no "virus app" installed. There should be an opt-out setting. https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/01/tech/apple-google-contact-tra...

Yes, mine is turned off. Look at some European countries now. England has QR codes at the entrances to all public spaces. Download and install the app or provide your details that they hold for 21 days. No, thank you. Will. Not. Comply.

Re: Google/Fitbit will monetise health data and harm consumers

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> argument they're making here is a little subtle, but it tracks. [ ... ] They're claiming Google will offer biometrically-based signal as an ad discrimination channel It's not impossible that that would happen, but it would be a departure from current behavior. To some degree, Google is selective about what data does and doesn't feed into ad targeting. Examples: (1) Emails are sensitive, and Gmail messages are off l…

Hah. I got a home screen notification to use Google's travel product minutes after I got a hotel booking confirmation email. I'm sure you can come up with reasons this is not breaking T&C but it would have never happened if the two products were in separate companies. And I'm sure they will "not use" the health data in a similar fashion.

I mean if you have Google travel installed then it's a feature that it's integrated with gmail.

Additionally I wouldn't find it weird for calendar or maps to make suggestions based on gmail. That is the value proposition by adopting the Google ecosystem.

Re: Google/Fitbit will monetise health data and harm consumers

#123

The argument they're making here is a little subtle, but it tracks. They're not claiming Google will hand out a user's biometrics to insurance companies or other parties. They're claiming Google will offer biometrically-based signal as an ad discrimination channel. At that point, they don't have to hand out the data to allow insurance companies to discriminate; insurance companies could set up targeted ads for Cadill…

> argument they're making here is a little subtle, but it tracks. [ ... ] They're claiming Google will offer biometrically-based signal as an ad discrimination channel It's not impossible that that would happen, but it would be a departure from current behavior. To some degree, Google is selective about what data does and doesn't feed into ad targeting. Examples: (1) Emails are sensitive, and Gmail messages are off l…

(For the benefit of the doubt, I'm choosing my wording very carefully here): I'm not convinced that Google works in this way, which could be a signal that their systems are so vast even they aren't aware of how users' data moves through it and gets used.

Of course, you could just as easily conclude that they're lying, but I find that harder to believe.

Everyone has some stories about how Google drew a suspicious correlation between products not supposed to be connected. In my case, there was one day where I wanted to watch an MP4 copy of Harry Potter I had on my NAS while on a work trip. Obtained ages ago. I uploaded it to my G-Suite Business Google Drive (not shared, nothing was pirated here despite ripping blurays still being a legal ish-zone). Later that day, YouTube started suggesting clips from Harry Potter to me.

Suspicious. Not damning. Are they scanning my Google Drive for filenames to feed to the YouTube recommendation engine? I don't know. Maybe it was just chance, or maybe a few days ago I clicked on a random article about JK Rowling's latest drama and that was enough to trigger three layers of indirection through the Google Brain and suddenly I love Harry Potter (I don't. Its fine. I'm sure after writing this out, though, Google's opinion on My opinion of it will be reinforced.)

But lets say I never watched those videos recommended to me. Is the YouTube recommendation engine data fed to their ad engine? What if I never click on something, but the system knows it presented it, and maybe I like Harry Potter anyway? I don't know. But it seems feasible, doesn't it? And if that's the case, then the data traveled two steps, where each step on its own is weird, but reasonably ok, but the two steps together look less ok.

We're really talking about the absolute cutting edge here; Google is building a brain processing exabytes of data. If you're in engineering; have you ever worked in a job where you felt like you knew how every part of the system worked? I work at a company with 10 people and I still don't feel that. Why would Google be any different? Teams talk to other teams. A middle manager two jumps up approves it. They get access to a database. Data travels around. An engineering lead at the top thinks they have a grasp on everything, a grasp spuriously assembled from reports written by people who themselves understand some non-100 percent of whats going on in their silo. Things fall through the cracks, it happens all the time, and in this case we're talking about buses of data so big that no one could even look at it all to verify what's in there is what they think is in there (and if they did actually have humans look at it, that'd have concerns on its own).

This is my pet theory: That the desires and realities of Google are so different that even what they say is untrustworthy because no one there knows whats actually going on anymore.

Re: Google/Fitbit will monetise health data and harm consumers

#124

The argument they're making here is a little subtle, but it tracks. They're not claiming Google will hand out a user's biometrics to insurance companies or other parties. They're claiming Google will offer biometrically-based signal as an ad discrimination channel. At that point, they don't have to hand out the data to allow insurance companies to discriminate; insurance companies could set up targeted ads for Cadill…

> argument they're making here is a little subtle, but it tracks. [ ... ] They're claiming Google will offer biometrically-based signal as an ad discrimination channel It's not impossible that that would happen, but it would be a departure from current behavior. To some degree, Google is selective about what data does and doesn't feed into ad targeting. Examples: (1) Emails are sensitive, and Gmail messages are off l…

I was shown a Autocad banner ad in a free-to-play game an hour after I got an email with a link to Youtube video about using autocad to design a working model-size airplane.

Note I hadn't clicked the link yet, simply read the small paragraph my friend wrote along with the YT link "hey check this guy out he is using autocad for blah blah".

That was the day I stopped using Gmail.

Re: Google/Fitbit will monetise health data and harm consumers

#125
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your comment, but let's be honest, good and evil are binary like night and day. I don't cotton to the idea that one's morals can be suspended in "twilight". There are ways to make tons of money and be completely moral.

> let's be honest, good and evil are binary like night and day. Now why would you think that? In fact I'm pretty sure you're wrong: good and evil are various shades of gray, never white nor black. In real life, there aren't entities (corporations or humans or whatever) that are "pure good", nor are there entities that are "pure evil".

Furthermore by not differentiating between shades of gray there's no way to encourage good behavior from companies/people because they're all equally bad so you treat them the same even if one is making more efforts to do the right thing.

Re: Google/Fitbit will monetise health data and harm consumers

#126

The argument they're making here is a little subtle, but it tracks. They're not claiming Google will hand out a user's biometrics to insurance companies or other parties. They're claiming Google will offer biometrically-based signal as an ad discrimination channel. At that point, they don't have to hand out the data to allow insurance companies to discriminate; insurance companies could set up targeted ads for Cadill…

> argument they're making here is a little subtle, but it tracks. [ ... ] They're claiming Google will offer biometrically-based signal as an ad discrimination channel It's not impossible that that would happen, but it would be a departure from current behavior. To some degree, Google is selective about what data does and doesn't feed into ad targeting. Examples: (1) Emails are sensitive, and Gmail messages are off l…

Sorry I think these are what Goole say they are doing, it is not what they are actually doing. Google use every bit our data to do whatever that benefit them or their investor and the military complex.

Re: Google/Fitbit will monetise health data and harm consumers

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> argument they're making here is a little subtle, but it tracks. [ ... ] They're claiming Google will offer biometrically-based signal as an ad discrimination channel It's not impossible that that would happen, but it would be a departure from current behavior. To some degree, Google is selective about what data does and doesn't feed into ad targeting. Examples: (1) Emails are sensitive, and Gmail messages are off l…

I was shown a Autocad banner ad in a free-to-play game an hour after I got an email with a link to Youtube video about using autocad to design a working model-size airplane. Note I hadn't clicked the link yet, simply read the small paragraph my friend wrote along with the YT link "hey check this guy out he is using autocad for blah blah". That was the day I stopped using Gmail.

Doesn't it seem more likely that you - a person who is interested enough in Autocad that people email you videos about it - searched for something related to Autocad?

Re: Google/Fitbit will monetise health data and harm consumers

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> argument they're making here is a little subtle, but it tracks. [ ... ] They're claiming Google will offer biometrically-based signal as an ad discrimination channel It's not impossible that that would happen, but it would be a departure from current behavior. To some degree, Google is selective about what data does and doesn't feed into ad targeting. Examples: (1) Emails are sensitive, and Gmail messages are off l…

Sorry I think these are what Goole say they are doing, it is not what they are actually doing. Google use every bit our data to do whatever that benefit them or their investor and the military complex.

It's not true, but of course, since they're fundamentally a closed institution, there's no way to independently audit the claims that it's not true.

Re: Google/Fitbit will monetise health data and harm consumers

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was shown a Autocad banner ad in a free-to-play game an hour after I got an email with a link to Youtube video about using autocad to design a working model-size airplane. Note I hadn't clicked the link yet, simply read the small paragraph my friend wrote along with the YT link "hey check this guy out he is using autocad for blah blah". That was the day I stopped using Gmail.

Doesn't it seem more likely that you - a person who is interested enough in Autocad that people email you videos about it - searched for something related to Autocad?

That is what made it so strange and surreal; I have never before or since searched for anything related to Autocad.

Me and my friend have an interest in model aircrafts and drones and often spoke in person about building a new drone/airplane from scratch as fun project and this was the first time that Autocad was even mentioned in our discussion. Another data point we are both old school and would talk about this over beers in the pub rather than through messaging apps.

The only thing linking me to Autocad was that single email I got in Gmail.

Re: Google/Fitbit will monetise health data and harm consumers

#130
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> argument they're making here is a little subtle, but it tracks. [ ... ] They're claiming Google will offer biometrically-based signal as an ad discrimination channel It's not impossible that that would happen, but it would be a departure from current behavior. To some degree, Google is selective about what data does and doesn't feed into ad targeting. Examples: (1) Emails are sensitive, and Gmail messages are off l…

(For the benefit of the doubt, I'm choosing my wording very carefully here): I'm not convinced that Google works in this way, which could be a signal that their systems are so vast even they aren't aware of how users' data moves through it and gets used. Of course, you could just as easily conclude that they're lying, but I find that harder to believe. Everyone has some stories about how Google drew a suspicious corr…

The internal truth is that these policies are policies, but they're maintained by human beings. Human error can occur resulting in the mixing of data. In general, that would be an error and corrected as soon as it's discovered. It's also hard for those errors to occur (data is siloed, and the process of correlating between silos is designed so that someone has to eventually submit an auditable document that outlines what data they want to correlate, why they need to, and why that's the right solution in the space of alternatives).

Regarding the spooky coincidence effect: the truth is that people are a lot more predictable than they assume they are. More often than not, when you're doing a thing related to X and then 10 minutes later you see an X ad, it's because you're actually in the bucket of people who like X and the buckets are highly correlative. You might be in that bucket because you like Y and 95% of people who like Y like X, and a search for Y, followed by doing something related to X, triggered the X ad because of the Y search. There's also huge confirmation bias on those coincidence ad views; everyone has a story of one, but I've yet to meet anyone who said "I sat down and recorded every ad I was shown for a week. 90% of them correlated with an activity I was doing in an unrelated Google product between 5 and 10 minutes before the ad was shown."

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