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My Father Firmly Believes the Earth Is Flat, How to Help

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Re: My Father Firmly Believes the Earth Is Flat, How to Help

#21

Post by colourgarden »

jhbadger wrote: post #15
perl4ever wrote: post #9

"SOMEWHERE or other—I think it is in the preface to Saint Joan—Bernard Shaw remarks that we are more gullible and superstitious today than we were in the Middle Ages, and as an example of modern credulity he cites the widespread belief that the earth is round. The average man, says Shaw, can advance not a single reason for thinking that the earth is round. He merely swallows this theory because there is something abo…

The ancient Greeks figured it out with basically layman's knowledge though. They noticed 1) Ships disappear over the horizon hull first mast last, suggesting the Earth is bent 2) The shape cast on the Moon by the Earth's shadow in lunar eclipse is a circle.

This is what the linked Quora question says?

Re: My Father Firmly Believes the Earth Is Flat, How to Help

#22

Post by bennyelv »

Call this a meta-conspiracy theory if you will, but I'm not convinced that flat-earthers actually exist in any kind of meaningful numbers. It strikes me as the kind of thing that's designed to stoke the fire of people on social media, which causes the "fight against flat earthers" to feature highly in everyone's consciousness, and make everyone believe that there's actually a movement when there isn't.

Add that to the number of people who will use it to wind people up, and answer "yes" on any survey just for a laugh, and I think you have what we have here.

I have no empirical evidence to back this theory up of course. How ironic!

Re: My Father Firmly Believes the Earth Is Flat, How to Help

#23

Post by thewarrior »

bennyelv wrote: post #22

Call this a meta-conspiracy theory if you will, but I'm not convinced that flat-earthers actually exist in any kind of meaningful numbers. It strikes me as the kind of thing that's designed to stoke the fire of people on social media, which causes the "fight against flat earthers" to feature highly in everyone's consciousness, and make everyone believe that there's actually a movement when there isn't. Add that to th…

I have met a flat earther. Before that I thought it was just a joke.

Re: My Father Firmly Believes the Earth Is Flat, How to Help

#24

Post by kiba »

perl4ever wrote: post #9

"SOMEWHERE or other—I think it is in the preface to Saint Joan—Bernard Shaw remarks that we are more gullible and superstitious today than we were in the Middle Ages, and as an example of modern credulity he cites the widespread belief that the earth is round. The average man, says Shaw, can advance not a single reason for thinking that the earth is round. He merely swallows this theory because there is something abo…

A lot of what we believe to be true is based on trust rather than in-depth understanding and verification. This is not a failing of people. Even the most educated person can only have so much understanding. We must use proxies such as credibility to determine who to trust.

This reminds me of the time that I discover a discrepancy of facts about when variolation was discovered. One source said 11th century, and the other is 15th century. Which is true? Unfortunately, I wasn't able to ascertain the truth of the matter, for I am not a historian and don't possess infinite time for fact verifications. I was only able to do the most superficial of fact checking, seeing if the sources agree with each other and that was time consuming enough.

Re: My Father Firmly Believes the Earth Is Flat, How to Help

#25

Post by kiba »

bennyelv wrote: post #22

Call this a meta-conspiracy theory if you will, but I'm not convinced that flat-earthers actually exist in any kind of meaningful numbers. It strikes me as the kind of thing that's designed to stoke the fire of people on social media, which causes the "fight against flat earthers" to feature highly in everyone's consciousness, and make everyone believe that there's actually a movement when there isn't. Add that to th…

Meaningful numbers?

There are billion of human beings, and then a fraction of these people with internet connection, and fraction that speak of the same language. The internet allow people to organize communities that would otherwise be impossible on a local level, giving to rise to possibly hundred of thousand or million of people who believe that the Earth is flat.

Is that 'meaningful' amount of people? I like to think it is enough to form movements, even if they can never get anywhere.

Re: My Father Firmly Believes the Earth Is Flat, How to Help

#26

Post by dontcarethrow2 »

perl4ever wrote: post #11
kthartic wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pure speculation on my part, as I haven't looked into any data to back this up, but I also believe that a lot of conspiracy theorists become conspiracy theorists, whether they realise it or not, for the sense of belonging and community that is perhaps lacking in other areas of their life. I mean think about it - if you don't have a satisfactory social group, what better way to fill that void than by joining a…

>if you don't have a satisfactory social group, what better way to fill that void than by joining a group of hundreds or thousands that all think and feel the same way as you ...kthartic posted on HN...

We just have to encourage each other to think and feel differently. More disagreements are good for healthy discussions..?

Re: My Father Firmly Believes the Earth Is Flat, How to Help

#27

Post by voxl »

chrisbennet wrote: post #17
LatteLazy wrote: post #2

Facts don't convince people. That's the problem with flat earth and trump and 1001 other issues. If your father believes in flat earth, explain how upset you are by that then get him some friends so he doesn't need to join fringe groups for a sense of belonging.

This is true. When you are younger and inexperienced, you believe fact will change people's minds. This is just not true. I didn't figure this out until I was in my 50's. It is very important for some people to convince others that their ideas are correct (which they very well might be). Let go of this "I need to convince people to agree with my view." Instead, love your father for his other qualities and allow him t…

Plenty of people have their mind changed by facts, they're called scientists. The rest are usually uneducated laymen. How do you change their minds? You don't, you educate their children to prevent the entrenchment of idiocracy.

Re: My Father Firmly Believes the Earth Is Flat, How to Help

#28

Post by jfengel »

chrisbennet wrote: post #17
LatteLazy wrote: post #2

Facts don't convince people. That's the problem with flat earth and trump and 1001 other issues. If your father believes in flat earth, explain how upset you are by that then get him some friends so he doesn't need to join fringe groups for a sense of belonging.

This is true. When you are younger and inexperienced, you believe fact will change people's minds. This is just not true. I didn't figure this out until I was in my 50's. It is very important for some people to convince others that their ideas are correct (which they very well might be). Let go of this "I need to convince people to agree with my view." Instead, love your father for his other qualities and allow him t…

It feels insidious that "harmless" ideas like flat eartherism and creationism have crept to include broader conspiracy theories that actually do harm people. We know that at least one think tank[1] has had extensive effects on American policy by casting doubt on science -- starting with the fact that smoking is harmful.

That creates a large population of people primed to expect scientists to be lying to them. Flat eartherism is harmless in itself, but I suspect that the OP's father also believes several other conspiracy theories -- and votes according to them.

That doesn't change the OP's problem, or your observation that you can't fix it. But if you can't even solve the readily-demonstrable fact that the earth is round (just phone a trustworthy friend a few timezones away and ask where the sun is), how are you going to get people to agree about things that actually cause harm?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heartland_Institute

Re: My Father Firmly Believes the Earth Is Flat, How to Help

#29

Post by drew55555 »

voxl wrote: post #27
chrisbennet wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true. When you are younger and inexperienced, you believe fact will change people's minds. This is just not true. I didn't figure this out until I was in my 50's. It is very important for some people to convince others that their ideas are correct (which they very well might be). Let go of this "I need to convince people to agree with my view." Instead, love your father for his other qualities and allow him t…

Plenty of people have their mind changed by facts, they're called scientists. The rest are usually uneducated laymen. How do you change their minds? You don't, you educate their children to prevent the entrenchment of idiocracy.

This comment is so incredibly smug. People change their minds all the time, even "uneducated laymen". You just may not know the foundation of their belief and show evidence against something peripheral. It takes time, effort, and understanding in order to change someones mind and a level of openness and vulnerability that may end in you changing your mind yourself. Also, if you think that scientists or highly educated people are somehow immune to holding onto a false belief in the face of opposing evidence, you're deluding yourself.
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