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On Old Age
11–20 of 95 posts
Re: On Old Age
#12Imagine being a slave and hearing this guy say it's all within you to live a happy life: >For to those who have not the means within themselves of a virtuous and happy life every age is burdensome
That'd totally suck if you were to hear him say it here and now. In the context of the Roman empire and the period Cicero wrote this it would probably not register much, except for with a few 'activist' types like Spartacus.
Take the way things are done currently which you more or less accept as normal, e.g. the state demands part of your income with the threat of force if you don't comply. Fast-forward to a new age when taxes have been abolished since the invention and perfection of the matter compiler (think 'Diamond Age') and imagine reading about how the government enslaved the populace. You need to interpret written words in the context of the place and time they ware written, if you try to literally apply them to the current situation things go south pretty quickly.
Re: On Old Age
#13Bold words from a man who, to the best of my knowledge, never acknowledged or reckoned with the role that his own dictatorial handling of the Catiline conspirators played in the fall of the Republic.
Cataline did have an army, and was looking to take over Rome for himself. As far as I can remember, we don’t have much information on the conspiracy.
Re: On Old Age
#14Bold words from a man who, to the best of my knowledge, never acknowledged or reckoned with the role that his own dictatorial handling of the Catiline conspirators played in the fall of the Republic.
I've been on a bit of a roman history binge lately, fueled by the discovery of Mike Duncan's podcast, "The History of Rome" so I'm going to tell the story I understood from that here for context:
In his telling, the Catiline Conspiracy was a product of its time: Marius and Sulla showed the Roman aristocracy that if you just ignored the law and had popular support + an army, you could basically do whatever you want, and so that became the norm for the next generation.
At the time, Cicero was one of the two Consuls, the heads of state that were elected yearly by the senate. And Pompey, a charismatic and popular Roman general was in command of a large army and had just won some wars in the east. Cicero was afraid of what Pompey might do with all his popularity and legions (again, ambitious men taking what they wanted by flouting laws was all the rage).
So when Cicero learned of a (not very well-organized) coup was being organized by senator Catilina, he attempted to use it as a way to unite the Roman senate against treasonous behaviour.
Cicero convinced the senators, and Catilina was exiled, protesting that he'd been mistreated. But he went and joined the army of centurion Manlius, who was helping organize the rebellion.
The rebels then tried to get a Gallic tribe, the Allobroges, to join them, but were betrayed to the senate and letters they had sent were used by Cicero to convince them to sentence five of the conspirators to death without trial.
Julius Caesar, at this point just another politician, protested this "sentenced to death without trial" outcome loudly, seeing Cicero as an enemy of his own ambitions.
For the rest of his life, putting five men to death without trial would be brought to discredit Cicero again and again, including being used as an excuse to exile him.
@throwanem -- does that sound like a reasonable summary of the context of your comment?
Re: On Old Age
#15Earlier quoted context omitted.
Cicero was demanitated at 63 (beating Ernesto Guevara by 24 years), yet Roger Daltrey (76) still has to sing "hope I die before I get old." Now that's karma?
I had heard that they drop that line when they sing it now. False rumor?
Still there as of 2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_4QrPPPcBw
Re: On Old Age
#16Bold words from a man who, to the best of my knowledge, never acknowledged or reckoned with the role that his own dictatorial handling of the Catiline conspirators played in the fall of the Republic.
So this is where I also struggle with Cicero. He was overly political, very worried about his own image, flip-flopped sides as suited him and was easily persuaded with gifts of status. But we remember him for his philosophies and writings (or his summaries of other’s philosophy for the more cynical), which did seem to have a impact on future generations. On one hand, all men fall short of their ideal. But do you real…
The point of ideals is that we're often willing to overlook[1] flaws in their messengers[2].
A man's retch should exceed his grasp, or what's a-heaving for?
"The power which the strong have over the weak, the employer over the employed, the educated over the unlettered, the experienced over the confiding, even the clever over the silly -- the forbearing or inoffensive use of all this power or authority, or a total abstinence from it when the case admits it, will show the gentleman in a plain light." -- General Robert E. Lee
"The nobles would still be in charge if they'd cared more about fruits than about roots." -- Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte
[1] that is, for judging the ideal. Judging a messenger by the ideals they profess to aspire is a different matter.
“Be true to what you said on paper.” – Martin Luther King, Jr., April 3, 1968.
[2] compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23378137
Re: On Old Age
#17I'm 62 now, enjoying the benefits of endurance sports and moderation in eating and drinking through most of my adult life. I know much of my relative well-being is due to genetics and luck. I know many family members, friends, and co-workers who have not been as fortunate, despite having been even more diligent in taking care of themselves. I see the frequent infirmities of my 10 year older friends who also took good care of themselves, and I know viscerally that my turn is coming. I'm happily beyond the ordeals of training and competition, and using this post-work healthy time to enjoy the wild places while I still can.
Re: On Old Age
#18Imagine being a slave and hearing this guy say it's all within you to live a happy life: >For to those who have not the means within themselves of a virtuous and happy life every age is burdensome
That'd totally suck if you were to hear him say it here and now. In the context of the Roman empire and the period Cicero wrote this it would probably not register much, except for with a few 'activist' types like Spartacus. Take the way things are done currently which you more or less accept as normal, e.g. the state demands part of your income with the threat of force if you don't comply. Fast-forward to a new age…
Did you seriously just turn a point about slavery into a rant that you have to pay taxes? Lol
Re: On Old Age
#19I thoroughly recommend the Cicero trilogy (Imperium, Lustrum, Dictator) by Robert Harris (https://www.amazon.com/Cicero-Trilogy-Robert-Harris-Collecti...) for a fictionalized, but thoroughly researched, story of his life and career.
Re: On Old Age
#20Bold words from a man who, to the best of my knowledge, never acknowledged or reckoned with the role that his own dictatorial handling of the Catiline conspirators played in the fall of the Republic.
I've been on a bit of a roman history binge lately, fueled by the discovery of Mike Duncan's podcast, "The History of Rome" so I'm going to tell the story I understood from that here for context: In his telling, the Catiline Conspiracy was a product of its time: Marius and Sulla showed the Roman aristocracy that if you just ignored the law and had popular support + an army, you could basically do whatever you want, a…
I would second Mike Duncan’s podcasts on Rome as being well worth your time.
And that is how I recall that period of time. It’s one of those situations where you let the reality of the situation deviate you from your ideals, I think.
@throwanem - have you ever read anything where he commented in hindsight that he still believed that he made the right choice? I’m newer to Roman history and sounds like you might have experience / background here.