Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

“I monitor my staff with software that takes screenshots”

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 236 posts

Re: “I monitor my staff with software that takes screenshots”

#201

Post by Balgair »

marakv2 wrote: post #157
charlieda wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And we should consider ourselves lucky as engineers that we work in an industry where we are so in demand that are able to do that. Workers in other industries (the article talks about a firm that re-sells beauty products) might not be so lucky.

This. I'm working as an ESL teacher and upper management made me install cameras in every classroom, then pipe that feed to their home and head office. Couldn't afford to leave, so I had to do it. I've left now though when I finally lined up something better.

Please tell me you teach 1984, for the sake of irony only.

Re: “I monitor my staff with software that takes screenshots”

#202

Post by Silhouette »

whack wrote: post #171
zenincognito wrote: post #5

I once went to court against a client who wouldn't pay his bills. The sum more than 35K. It took over 9 months to get to court ( as the court wouldnt give a date ) and countless docs and hours spent to come up with evidence folder. In Australia, a citizen can argue their case which I did without using any lawyers. Finally, we both argued our case to a point where the client's defence was that there was no time log fo…

> Pay for work not time spent on the computer. Consider the unintended consequences of what you're proposing. Most software projects end up taking far longer than initially estimated. If you tell your manager that you can have something done in one month, and it actually takes you two months to do it, does that mean you should take a 50% pay cut for those 2 months? Or that you should work 80 hours weeks to get it don…

If you're a freelancer who doesn't charge by the hour, more power to you. But most people prefer the stability of a fixed monthly paycheck, regardless of how productive/unproductive they may be

Most employees might prefer that. It seems likely that a disproportionate amount of freelancers (and other entrepreneurial types) do not, presumably because they trust that the results they can offer will justify higher compensation than they would expect to receive as an employee and they know how to manage their risk. It's a totally different kind of relationship when you're working business-to-business instead of employer-employee.

Re: “I monitor my staff with software that takes screenshots”

#203

Post by Silhouette »

wodenokoto wrote: post #42
zenincognito wrote: post #5

I once went to court against a client who wouldn't pay his bills. The sum more than 35K. It took over 9 months to get to court ( as the court wouldnt give a date ) and countless docs and hours spent to come up with evidence folder. In Australia, a citizen can argue their case which I did without using any lawyers. Finally, we both argued our case to a point where the client's defence was that there was no time log fo…

I'm working at a consultancy, and fixed priced projects are the worst. Clients get greedy and want every little detail they come up with implemented. When things turn out more complex than expected, you have to deliver shoddy work instead of decreasing scope and at the end of the project you ended up adding a feature they asked for halfway through and now they are complaining that the feature it superseeded wasn't in…

If you're going to do fixed price, you really need a proper spec, change management process and approval process defined up-front. If the project isn't large enough to justify that or the participants aren't willing to do it, going fixed price is almost inevitably going to cause problems.

On the other hand, if you do have a reasonably clear idea of what you want up front as the client, and if you do have a reasonably clear idea of what it will take to achieve that as the service provider, a fixed-price contract on reasonable terms can work to both parties' advantage. The client gets a degree of certainty from early on that they would not have with time-based pricing. The service provider assumes the risk but is better able to judge it, and can price based on the value they are offering to the client and the degree of risk involved, potentially increasing their margin considerably while still having happy clients.

Re: “I monitor my staff with software that takes screenshots”

#204

Post by Silhouette »

Thlom wrote: post #77
mrweasel wrote: post #21

I worked for a company with a UK department, the UK boss would routinely use similar software to check that people where actually working and doing things correctly. The Scandinavian bosses opted to just trust everyone to do the right thing and people always would. Interestingly enough if was always the British employees who would do things like steal customer contact lists when they left or do deals on the side, so…

The Scandinavian bosses didn't just opt to trust the employees. Spying on employees is illegal in (most of?) Scandinavia as far as I know. (By the way, I have the same experience re: British/Scandinavian labor culture)

Spying so intrusively on employees need to be done very carefully to stay legal in the UK as well. The ICO (the national data protection regulator) provides extensive guidance for employers on workplace monitoring, and there are several laws that might be relevant depending on the circumstances. The rules are far more nuanced than just saying that an employee on work time can be subject to whatever monitoring an employer feels like doing.

Re: “I monitor my staff with software that takes screenshots”

#205

Post by ksk »

kelnos wrote: post #60
mrweasel wrote: post #21

I worked for a company with a UK department, the UK boss would routinely use similar software to check that people where actually working and doing things correctly. The Scandinavian bosses opted to just trust everyone to do the right thing and people always would. Interestingly enough if was always the British employees who would do things like steal customer contact lists when they left or do deals on the side, so…

> ... so I suppose they had a reason to not trust people. When you teach people that they aren't trustworthy, they tend to end up not being trustworthy. Perhaps if the UK bosses had given their employees a bit of trust, they would have lived up to it. And, on the flip side, perhaps if your Scandinavian bosses had implemented the same draconian monitoring measures, there would have been more people from your office do…

I think you're getting to the the crux of it. Exactly What actions make it seem like the other person has branded you as untrustworthy? Would a cashier counting the money you gave them be a sign that they don't trust you? Or an airport security making you pass through a metal detector? Or a Police officer running a speed gun on your car?

With the old 'Trust, but verify' idea, the disagreement is always on the 'how' in verify.

Re: “I monitor my staff with software that takes screenshots”

#206

Post by zepolen »

jacquesm wrote: post #165
rvnx wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should knowledge or experience be charged ? Isn't it in the interest of the whole humanity to be able to charge only for materials ?

I have a very large file with lots of 1s and 0s in it, you can have them for free. If you want them ordered and that ordering takes me a year or so then I expect to be paid. Knowledge and experience are the result of an investment in time and effort on account of the person with the knowledge. They usually expect some kind of return on that investment unless it was done for hobby purposes. Whether 'regular' labor and…

  file.sort()
Amazing how much experience, sweat and tears you get for free behind a single function call. Any other industry would charge you a ton. Open source!

Re: “I monitor my staff with software that takes screenshots”

#207

Post by poulsbohemian »

spurdoman77 wrote: post #17
zenincognito wrote: post #5

I once went to court against a client who wouldn't pay his bills. The sum more than 35K. It took over 9 months to get to court ( as the court wouldnt give a date ) and countless docs and hours spent to come up with evidence folder. In Australia, a citizen can argue their case which I did without using any lawyers. Finally, we both argued our case to a point where the client's defence was that there was no time log fo…

> Pay for work not time spent on the computer. Pay for the results, not for the work or time spent.

Or more specifically, pay for what you say you'd pay for in the contract. If it was a time and materials contract, pay the man for his T&M.

I've spent way too much of my career dealing with nasty clients who signed a T&M agreement and then stopped paying when they didn't get the next Facebook / Google / Amazon. Not my effing problem that their expectations weren't in the realm of reality and the contract was based on time units not their pie-in-the-sky dreams. If they'd wanted a contract based on their pipe dreams, chances are I wouldn't have signed it OR I would have put in verbiage to make sure they couldn't screw me in the end.

Re: “I monitor my staff with software that takes screenshots”

#208

Post by whack »

Silhouette wrote: post #202
whack wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pay for work not time spent on the computer. Consider the unintended consequences of what you're proposing. Most software projects end up taking far longer than initially estimated. If you tell your manager that you can have something done in one month, and it actually takes you two months to do it, does that mean you should take a 50% pay cut for those 2 months? Or that you should work 80 hours weeks to get it don…

If you're a freelancer who doesn't charge by the hour, more power to you. But most people prefer the stability of a fixed monthly paycheck, regardless of how productive/unproductive they may be Most employees might prefer that. It seems likely that a disproportionate amount of freelancers (and other entrepreneurial types) do not, presumably because they trust that the results they can offer will justify higher compen…

Yup, I definitely agree with you that it's an entirely different career model and some people would prefer that. Unfortunately, there's also a lot of people who want the best of both worlds.

"Why did you leave work at 3pm yesterday?"

"I finished all my sprint tasks, so how does it matter if I leave early? You're paying me for results, not time"

"Why didn't you complete all your sprint tasks last week?"

"I was working diligently from 9-5 everyday but still wasn't able to finish my tasks. You don't seriously expect me to work evenings do you?"

Re: “I monitor my staff with software that takes screenshots”

#209

Post by poulsbohemian »

whack wrote: post #171
zenincognito wrote: post #5

I once went to court against a client who wouldn't pay his bills. The sum more than 35K. It took over 9 months to get to court ( as the court wouldnt give a date ) and countless docs and hours spent to come up with evidence folder. In Australia, a citizen can argue their case which I did without using any lawyers. Finally, we both argued our case to a point where the client's defence was that there was no time log fo…

> Pay for work not time spent on the computer. Consider the unintended consequences of what you're proposing. Most software projects end up taking far longer than initially estimated. If you tell your manager that you can have something done in one month, and it actually takes you two months to do it, does that mean you should take a 50% pay cut for those 2 months? Or that you should work 80 hours weeks to get it don…

>If you're a freelancer who doesn't charge by the hour, more power to you. But most people prefer the stability of a fixed monthly paycheck, regardless of how productive/unproductive they may be

Back in the day, I billed different projects by time, by fixed price, by value, by deliverables, and by time-based retainer. What I found was that what the client was willing to consider said a lot about their values and ethics. There were cases where I could save clients money by doing something other that T&M, but their need to feel in control was so great that I finally just gave up and stopped trying to be creative about contract terms. Personally - I still think retainer based is the best option for an ongoing relationship as it should eliminate all the needless haggling - I consult, you pay, we all win.

So I'm with you - for all the thinking that I might be able to increase my revenue by some other model was wiped out by the fact that it was just easier to bill hourly.

Re: “I monitor my staff with software that takes screenshots”

#210

Post by UhDev »

ehnto wrote: post #174
faebi wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it ever crash?

I asked the same thing and he hasn't had an issue yet, I guess the key press rate is slow enough that it never reaches any issues.

I use the down arrow key, it adds nothing to documents.
Post reply on HN