Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble) • Hacker News Board

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#131

Post by bad_user » Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 3:08 PM UTC

yid wrote: post #120

bad_user wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not for entrepreneurs. I don't have a college degree, and I'm glad I don't as that would have been waisted time -- but I had to interview people, and the quality of people coming from a certain university in my city is much higher than the rest of the bunch. I even go as far as thinking that there might be something wrong with people not having a degree, so I definitely bring the point up in interviews. But a degree…

> I don't have a college degree, and I'm glad I don't as that would have been waisted time Ouch, talk about a bad time to make a typo ("waisted")

English is not my native language, it isn't even my second language and I don't live in an English-speaking country.

And not that I don't appreciate a good spanking, but I really dislike grammar Nazism and ad-hominems.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#132

Post by joshhart » Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 3:09 PM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #37

joshhart wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you equate poor performance on a standardized test with being less fortunate? It's my opinion that university admissions are way to lenient and that we'd do well to ratchet them up a major notch. Let community colleges serve their purpose. University studies should be for serious students capable of academic work. I brought up my score in this because it's the comparison most relevant to me.

How do you equate poor performance on a standardized test with being less fortunate? I'm sorry, are you under the impression that you were a smart twelve-year-old for some reason other than that you happened to draw some good cards from the gene pool? Feeling superior to others for being smarter is like feeling superior to others for being better-looking or having richer parents. It's just dickish. (edit: or perhaps…

I think I was a smart twelve year old for several reasons, actually. There's the genetic component, but there's also the time I spent in MathCounts (probably the best investment I or my parents have ever made) and the time I spent reading books. Standardized tests measure both what you've learned and your critical thinking ability. I believe neither of those are predetermined at birth.

I'm actually not trying to mock others. I simply believe that university standards should be a lot harder because schools could teach many subjects a lot faster and the investment of time and money from the students would be much better spent.

Regarding "to" versus "too" - I was on an airplane with a fair bit of turbulence so I'm surprised that's my only mistake.

I got a lot of downvotes for what I said and granted I could have said it a lot better, but a system where every individual goes to college is completely broken unless university bound students are much better prepared in terms of critical thinking ability, mathematical ability, reading/writing skills, and study habits than they are today.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#133

Post by roc » Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 3:12 PM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #56

ebiester wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that education doesn't want acceptance criteria; rather, any criteria that could be defined could easily be gamed. To nearly every professor I've met, the criteria should be something similar to this: A student is introduced to a wide variety of subjects and challenged by a variety of views outside of the cultural bubble in which the student was born; such so that an undergraduate student leaves better prepa…

To nearly every professor I've met, the criteria should be something similar to this: A student is introduced to a wide variety of subjects and challenged by a variety of views outside of the cultural bubble in which the student was born; such so that an undergraduate student leaves better prepared to participate in educated society and make wise decisions in civic and public discourse. I am rather iffy on this idea,…

Unless you're going to charge that students are being judged on their conclusions and not on their process, or are being indoctrinated to a particular viewpoint rather than exposed to and challenged by various viewpoints in the service of cultivating critical thinking tools, I don't think the issues raised cause any problems.

The fact that professors may live in their own cultural bubble isn't a problem so long as they are competently presenting views to are new to the students.

The primary goal is to develop the tools necessary to critically examine any incoming view. Not to simply be exposed to some representative panoply of views. Any such array of views will inevitably be incomplete (due time, if nothing else) and the evenness of their presentation inevitably open to challenge.

So if failings of variety or fairness in presentation are deal-breakers, we're essentially throwing out any possible real-world examination of such topics, regardless of the particular bent of a particular professor or institution.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#134

Post by roc » Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 3:33 PM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #2

What is it about this subject that encourages such hyperbole and overgeneralization? For what it's worth, I looked it up (thanks linkedin) and the author of this piece spent four years at some place called Linfield College in McMinville, Oregon, getting a BA in History, Philosophy, French and German. It's possible that her personal experiences may not generalize.

Education reflects a major life decision, one which people feel strongly about. As such, it's very easy for emotion to trump a sober analysis of the situation and for the conversation to descend into the flinging of heated justifications.

All sides are just as vulnerable to this.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#135

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 3:35 PM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #63

kjksf wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the U.S. That is not the case in every country in the world (many have free college education) so it's not an inherent property of higher ed to be "marked-driven commodity". Therefore it's valid to criticize the U.S. implementation for being that given that it doesn't have to be.

It's notable, however, that on any ranking of the world's top universities you'll find the US absolutely dominant, holding over half of the top one hundred, two hundred, whatever... spots. This suggests there must be something going right. And having spent time at various universities in various different countries I gotta tell you that the existence of a lot more money floating around the average US university certa…

[deleted]

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#136

Post by arohner » Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 3:38 PM UTC

foamdino wrote: post #122

arohner wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current system is completely broken for people who don't get useful degrees, but only annoying for people who do get useful degrees. 1) Have a plan. Go into college with a measurable goal. Say "I'm going to get a degree in X, because that will help me get into my desired profession". Don't say "I'm going to go to become a well rounded person". 2) Get a useful degree. Generally, a useful degree is something that i…

First define useful? I have an undergrad technical degree and yes it was useful to me. I do however have an appreciation of the arts and, if time and funds permitted, would gladly study multiple undergrad and masters courses in philosophy, economics (art or science, depends on where you go), history and linguistics. There is a technical snobbery that demeans all 'art' as useless and elevates all technical degrees to,…

In no way did I imply all art is useless.

What I did strongly imply is that spending $50-100k and four years of your life is a big decision.

Please, get a degree in whatever you like, but realize that you are probably in the minority for being able to receive education "for fun". Most people do it for an improvement in their earnings.

The issue isn't "my" view of education, but the mainstream view, pushed by the US gov't and all universities. I'm sick of the lie that a degree in Russian Lit or Communications will somehow prepare you for the workplace, or provide skills that will help you earn more. I'm sick of people being told to get a degree in whatever strikes their fancy, while strongly implying that any degree is good for them.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#137

Post by hugh3 » Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 3:40 PM UTC

entangld wrote: post #62

gruseom wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering that da Vinci very likely never said that, your invocation of his authority is ironic. http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=argumen... http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Leonardo_da_Vinci Edit: I retract that last bit. Quoting someone isn't necessarily arguing from their authority. But it almost certainly isn't Leonardo.

I could care less who said what. I have thousands of quotes. The quotes help me learn whose books I should read. I copied and pasted that quote because I had it. The words are more important than where they came from. I don't have much respect for authority in the first place. I would just rather spend more time debating actual arguments than arguing about credentials. RE: Leonardo - Well until we find out who said i…

"Couldn't care less", not "Could care less". Sheesh!

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#138

Post by NY_USA_Hacker » Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 4:24 PM UTC

colomon wrote: post #128

NY_USA_Hacker wrote: post #108

Okay, we are debating the value of education in college and beyond. My qualifications: I hold a Ph.D. in some topics in applied math from a world class research university. Before the Ph.D. I taught math in one university and computer science in another. After my Ph.D. I was a professor in an MBA program at a Big Ten university and a research scientist in an industrial computer science lab. Now I'm an entrepreneur. T…

You might want to try a Google search on the phrase "You can always tell a bigot"...

"Bigot"?

How about idiot?

You might try to wipe your ass with your left hand and then stare at your fingers and try to find some meaningful direction in your life.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#139

Post by WalterBright » Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 6:21 PM UTC

kragen wrote: post #68

WalterBright wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen very, very few people able to learn calculus outside of a school system. Most will just go to elaborate lengths to avoid using calculus and justify why they don't need to learn it.

I did, more or less, but I was pretty motivated. If I hadn't been so strongly motivated, I wouldn't have been able to do it at all. As it was, I switched to taking calculus classes at the first opportunity. The funny thing is, though, I did a lot better on the AP exam than the kids who did take a calculus class, the same class I would have taken if I'd finished the prerequisite class in time. And, after a semester of…

High school calculus barely scratches the surface of what calculus is, though to be sure, I've only personally encountered one person who got that far with calculus without school.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#140

Post by WalterBright » Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 6:27 PM UTC

Tycho wrote: post #35

WalterBright wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen very, very few people able to learn calculus outside of a school system. Most will just go to elaborate lengths to avoid using calculus and justify why they don't need to learn it.

Fair enough. What examples did you have in mind of people trying to avoid the use of calculus (where it would be the best solution)?

They guessed at the answer (these are people doing mechanical and electronic designs). They'd test the design, and it would not work. They'd guess again, test, did not work. Quite a bit of time and money would be wasted, whereas some calculus would give them values for their components that would work the first time.

I've also seen people look up formulas in a book, and misapply them with no understanding. The formulas are understandable if you know calculus, but these people would get answers that didn't work and would just be befuddled.