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French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

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Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#451
post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This yields the highest income per hours@home. But that's usually not what people optimize for, they optimize for max total income, because rent or mortgage payments etc aren't based on a percentage of income but fixed amounts. Sure, it's great if you only work one hour a month and get 1000€ for that instead of working 100 hours and getting 4000€. But if your rent is 1100€, what good does that do?

Your results are the same, your optimisation goals seem to differ. Does it matter?

The results aren't the same though. If you want maximum total income and you'll take a percentage cut of one of two salaries, you'll take the cut for the lower salary. If you optimize for maximum income per hours worked, you'd take the cut on the higher salary.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#452
post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing biological in denying fathers parental leave even if the mother takes the first months of it. And it is sexism to ignore the effects to womens careers if this is not shared.

Nobody is denying anything. Paternal leave is a privilege, not a right. Not doing everything you possibly can to make everyone equal when it comes to sex is not sexism.

> Paternal leave is a privilege, not a right.

So what?

> Not doing everything you possibly can to make everyone equal when it comes to sex is not sexism.

If something inherent in our society - having children - causes one gender to have unequal opportunity it's sexist to be against counter-measures due to some sort of bullshit "biology" argument.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company has to pay workers for 49 - 59 weeks without getting any work? I'm all for parental leave, but that's a full year. Does the government subsidize this? That expense could sink a small company. What happens if the workers leave the company after getting the benefit? I'm really curious how European firms compete with American ones when workers can take so much time off and saddle their companies with so much r…

Folks love to talk about these marginal 'perks' in Social Democracies, and the benefits experienced by the least fortunate, but you never hear about the costs of these programs or their impact on the finances of the average household. All these great benefits are, of course, funded via massive taxation of the middle and upper classes. You can see the (relative) impact in the data, which reveal household incomes to be…

I know it's quite attractive to compare one-dimensional statistics internationally, and I won't say it has no uses. But it can also be misleading and we have to be careful about understanding the appropriate context.

For example, there is no word on comparing household income on a purchasing power parity basis. You'd want to reflect prices, which may be higher/lower.

There is no word on the fact household sizes in the region in and around Scandinavia are typically very low, quite a bit lower than the US. (fewer dependents, lower required income for the same standard of living).

There is no word on average vs median statistics, the former favouring less equal countries like the US in the statistics, but the latter painting a more accurate picture of the typical household.

There is no word on expense requirements. Yes, direct social transfers (e.g. rental assistance) would be part of the disposable income statistics. But indirect subsidies (e.g. social housing rents, substantially below market rate, or universal healthcare insurance premiums far below market rates, or universal tertiary education costs far below market rates) are not part of these statistics.

For example, the fact university is free in Denmark, is absolutely not part of the household income. The fact public healthcare is free in Denmark, is not part of household income statistics. Yet the quality of both is very good.

There is also no word on the differential interest rates. For example, Denmark currently has negative mortgage rates. Obviously that increases household debt. But any additional household mortgage debt for example is actually creating a net income for these very same households. You can debate whether these interest rates signal economic issues, that's a fair discussion, but the point still stands that 'not all household debt is equal'. You cannot say 'high debt is worse', when many EU countries have interest rates from -0.5% to - 1.5% and the US has interest rates of 2 - 3%, and compare them.

Same with net worth, it all ties in to every other aspect of the welfare state. In the US you have a minimal welfare state and thus must accumulate net worth for retirement, kids' education, medical copayments etc etc. In many North/west EU countries education, healthcare, housing is all free or strongly subsidised and publicly funded, requiring much lower accumulations of private net worth to attain the same quality of life.

In short, the data you cite is not incorrect, but your conclusions are shortsighted and need far more interpretation and context to approximate the truth of the matter.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Folks love to talk about these marginal 'perks' in Social Democracies, and the benefits experienced by the least fortunate, but you never hear about the costs of these programs or their impact on the finances of the average household. All these great benefits are, of course, funded via massive taxation of the middle and upper classes. You can see the (relative) impact in the data, which reveal household incomes to be…

Surprisingly large differences in household debt! What are the major contributors to these differences? USA seems to be in the middle. Right next to Germany, which one might think more similar to the Nordic countries compared to US. Where as Canada is higher than Finland.

In short: interest rates & tax benefits.

Mortgage rates are typically far lower. My rate is about 1.5%. In Denmark it's -0.5%, yes you get paid to borrow.

If you look at mortgages, you have two negative cashflows: the principal you pay back, and the interest you pay on the loan. Of these two, the interest is actually the only cost. (taxes/insurance is separate because they're typically paid regardless of whether you have a mortgage, you'd still pay this even if you bought the home in cash without a mortgage.)

Paying back principal is not costing you anything. As in, suppose you had a $100 loan and you paid it back, you now have $100 less cash but also $100 less of a loan. You're not any richer or poorer. Similarly, if you do the opposite: borrow $100, sure you have $100 in cash, but you're not richer, because you still owe $100.

In that sense, if you borrow $250k for a home and over the years, earn $250k and use it to pay off the house, you've not 'lost' $250k. You still own it, it's just locked up in the home. If you sell the home, you get the $250k back, assuming the price hasn't changed.

But the interest, that's gone forever. That's where the real cost is in carrying a mortgage.

As such, the borrowing capacity and housing costs that someone can bear, is substantially influenced by mortgage rates. In the US these are 2-3% or so, in Denkmark it's negative 0.5% or so. These interest rates essentially dictate how favourable it is to buy, and how much more prices can rise, while still being affordable. Just compare the monthly fees of a 3% interest mortgage to one with a 1% interest mortgage. Or more informative even: compare how much you can borrow with say $1k a month in mortgage fees (principal+interest, or just interest whatever you want), when the interest rate is 1% or 3%.

For example, a $200k loan at 3% is $300k in total fees. A $280k loan with 0.5% interest is also $300k in total fees. And that's including principal. If you take out the principal, the difference is far greater.

On top of that there's significant tax benefits to home ownership in much of Europe, like deducting interest payments from your taxable income to a very large extent. The combined effect is that a lot of households have tons of debt which is actually very affordable and not problematic. (until interest rates will rise, which will get ugly... but most economists expect low rates to be the 'new normal'... we'll have to see. And a lot of the rates get fixed for 10-30 years so the impact if it happens, is not very direct).

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#455
post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is denying anything. Paternal leave is a privilege, not a right. Not doing everything you possibly can to make everyone equal when it comes to sex is not sexism.

> Paternal leave is a privilege, not a right. So what? > Not doing everything you possibly can to make everyone equal when it comes to sex is not sexism. If something inherent in our society - having children - causes one gender to have unequal opportunity it's sexist to be against counter-measures due to some sort of bullshit "biology" argument.

I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree.

You can be not sexist without supporting every possible measure to attempt to achieve a perfectly egalitarian society.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#456
post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Paternal leave is a privilege, not a right. So what? > Not doing everything you possibly can to make everyone equal when it comes to sex is not sexism. If something inherent in our society - having children - causes one gender to have unequal opportunity it's sexist to be against counter-measures due to some sort of bullshit "biology" argument.

I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree. You can be not sexist without supporting every possible measure to attempt to achieve a perfectly egalitarian society.

Sure, though you use an inherently sex-centered argument to oppose it so I'm not sure why you try to fight the sexist label?

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#457
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a matter of money more than it's a matter of "culture".

No, it's more a matter of culture. Any wealthy industrialised country can easily afford this. The difference is in how much value they attach to family, child care and parenthood. For all its talk about "family values", the US doesn't seem to care much about families; it's one of the few countries in the world without paid maternity leave (the others are Papua New Guinea, Lesotho and Swaziland), and it has the highes…

>It's not a matter of money, it's a matter of culture. Any wealthy country can afford this.

???

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a matter of money more than it's a matter of "culture".

Yes, in the sense that rich Western countries can afford things like that. And many do, whether they’re ”petrostates” or not. But what about the richest country of them all? Tell me that the US couldn’t afford it if they really wanted!

Nowhere did I talk about the US. I'm Southern European.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree. You can be not sexist without supporting every possible measure to attempt to achieve a perfectly egalitarian society.

Sure, though you use an inherently sex-centered argument to oppose it so I'm not sure why you try to fight the sexist label?

What exactly am I opposing?

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#460
post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Europe" in the sense you speak of just isn't. EU as an economic space has huge internal periphery with all the typical problems thereof (high unemployment, flight of young qualified workforce elsewhere). It is quite easy to visualize, actually. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... My wife is a huge fan of Spanish culture. We travel there often (pre-Covid, but hopefully also post-Covid). An…

Who'd have thought that warm weather causes unemployment? Or perhaps being a post-Roman nation causes unemployment? Even though I'm partly kidding, I'm partly not. Some of these things are so consistent, I wonder if we gloss over them and should contemplate they are underlying issues whereas 'employment policy' may be less relevant than we think. Maybe in some cultures people like to work more than others.

Well Gibraltar has practically zero unemployment and actually needs the Spanish workforce from La Linea and Algeciras to commute in daily...
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