Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Amazon One – Palm recognition for Amazon Go

blog.aboutamazon.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 151 posts

Re: Amazon One – Palm recognition for Amazon Go

#41

Post by culturestate »

dustinmoris wrote: post #39
mmm_grayons wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or we could (radical idea here) not use biometrics . I don't mean to be dismissive, but what advantage does this provide over opening a web site and hitting "pay" or maybe some sort of NFC tap? This looks like biometrics for the sake of being cool and flashy, which is not a trade-off I'm willing to make.

Here's an example which something like Amazon One can solve, but a card cannot: When I go to the grocery shop and I buy alcohol then I have to wait at the self checkout till until a member of staff comes to verify my age before I can pay for my shopping basket. That involves me showing them an ID (e.g. my driving license) and them having to verify my biometric (face) by looking at me and then looking at my driving li…

> I could age verify myself only once at an Amazon One kiosk and then have my legal age linked to my verified palm

Why not do the same thing, but instead of verifying your palm you verify a device that's responsible for authenticating you? This could be a special phone app (like Singapore's SingPass[1]) or even a small card with a built-in fingerprint reader. Once you authenticate yourself to the device, it can attest to your identity and the transaction can be finished via NFC.

Seems like the best of both worlds - automate identity validation without a centralized biometric database.

1. https://www.singpass.gov.sg

Re: Amazon One – Palm recognition for Amazon Go

#43

Post by hughw »

alexmat wrote: post #12
ageitgey wrote: post #8

> We selected palm recognition for a few important reasons. I'm sure the main one was that people associate fingerprints with being arrested, but maybe they could trick people into volunteering to be constantly fingerprinted by a private company if they just used a different part of the hand.

From the FAQ, it seems like this is not as invasive as fingerprints: "We selected palm recognition for a few important reasons. One reason was that palm recognition is considered more private than some biometric alternatives because you can’t determine a person’s identity by looking at an image of their palm."

That seems disengenuous? You can't determine a person's identity by looking at a fingerprint either. You have to match it against a database of them.

Re: Amazon One – Palm recognition for Amazon Go

#44

Post by hughw »

nafizh wrote: post #30

'One reason was that palm recognition is considered more private than some biometric alternatives because you can’t determine a person’s identity by looking at an image of their palm.' Umm, if this is true, how are you identifying the person then?

They don't identify you. They read your future.

Re: Amazon One – Palm recognition for Amazon Go

#45

Post by dustinmoris »

culturestate wrote: post #41
dustinmoris wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an example which something like Amazon One can solve, but a card cannot: When I go to the grocery shop and I buy alcohol then I have to wait at the self checkout till until a member of staff comes to verify my age before I can pay for my shopping basket. That involves me showing them an ID (e.g. my driving license) and them having to verify my biometric (face) by looking at me and then looking at my driving li…

> I could age verify myself only once at an Amazon One kiosk and then have my legal age linked to my verified palm Why not do the same thing, but instead of verifying your palm you verify a device that's responsible for authenticating you? This could be a special phone app (like Singapore's SingPass[1]) or even a small card with a built-in fingerprint reader. Once you authenticate yourself to the device, it can attes…

> Why not do the same thing, but instead of verifying your palm you verify a device?

Because my (imaginary) 12 year old son can grab my phone and then pretend to be an adult when doing booze shopping. This is the reason why most Western countries don't allow this kind of technology for age verification. For example in the UK you have to file an application if your new technology can be authorised to be used for age verification in pubs, restaurants and other venues and that wouldn't pass their requirements.

On the other hand, a palm cannot be given to a 12 year old person. If Amazon One uses an element of palm veins in their biometric template, then even if you chopped off your hand it wouldn't work anymore because the blood flow would stop and therefore fail the identification.

It is true that an adult could still pay for booze for a 12 year old by presenting their palm, but that is already the case today where parents can go shopping with their children and buy alcohol as part of the family basket.

EDIT:

At the end of the day, a biometric will ensure that the adult is actually physically present at the time of purchase, which is what the law requires for things like alcohol shopping. Devices don't have that extra layer of quality assurance.

EDIT 2:

> But why couldn't the device handle your biometric authentication? Your 12-year-old son can't (hopefully) steal your face or your fingerprint

Because what happens on the device is unknown to the thing which needs to know that you are of legal age. At the end of the day it's just a phone which says "yes person is above 18" but how do you know that my phone didn't just reply that because it was programmed by me to do so? If the biometric is verified by the Amazon One device which is not my personal device then it's infinitely less likely to have bene tampered with.

Re: Amazon One – Palm recognition for Amazon Go

#47

Post by culturestate »

dustinmoris wrote: post #45
culturestate wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I could age verify myself only once at an Amazon One kiosk and then have my legal age linked to my verified palm Why not do the same thing, but instead of verifying your palm you verify a device that's responsible for authenticating you? This could be a special phone app (like Singapore's SingPass[1]) or even a small card with a built-in fingerprint reader. Once you authenticate yourself to the device, it can attes…

> Why not do the same thing, but instead of verifying your palm you verify a device? Because my (imaginary) 12 year old son can grab my phone and then pretend to be an adult when doing booze shopping. This is the reason why most Western countries don't allow this kind of technology for age verification. For example in the UK you have to file an application if your new technology can be authorised to be used for age v…

But why couldn't the device handle your biometric authentication? Your 12-year-old son can't (hopefully) steal your face or your fingerprint.

Re: Amazon One – Palm recognition for Amazon Go

#50

Post by mmm_grayons »

suvelx wrote: post #37
mmm_grayons wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or we could (radical idea here) not use biometrics . I don't mean to be dismissive, but what advantage does this provide over opening a web site and hitting "pay" or maybe some sort of NFC tap? This looks like biometrics for the sake of being cool and flashy, which is not a trade-off I'm willing to make.

The only benefit I can think of, is that biometrics has no way of me loaning my credentials. If my age verification was tied to my palm, I'd have to cut off my hand to let a teenager buy booze with it. But I still don't feel this is a compelling argument.

I honestly don't care that much about kids buying booze. The "think of the children" argument also typically leads me to be suspicious of the motives of those that make it. Kids are going to drink if they want to; I didn't because I chose to do otherwise, not because I couldn't.
Post reply on HN