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Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

kalzumeus.com

261–269 of 269 posts

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand why that is your goal. What I don't understand is how you can credibly claim you offer something more valuable. To actively hire at less than market range is to tacitly admit (whether intentionally or not) that you neither can afford nor adequately deploy the difference you're paying for. If that is the case, what kind of a message do you think that sends me about your serviceable obtainable market and y…

This is a great point. (Un)fortunately we have not had to but this into practice yet so when we do perhaps I will monumentally fail. Based on my limited (10 years) experience I'm pretty convinced that there is little to no correlation between competence, confidence and compensation. There are many people for whom work is not the most important thing in their lives. My expectation is that actively selecting for work n…

> My expectation is that actively selecting for work not being the most important thing in someones life is an arbitrage that is under utilised and will create a much more sustainable company in the medium to long term.

Well, let's make sure to be specific about what we mean by those "for whom work is not the most important things in their lives." There are those for whom that's the case now, but who put in the work previously to attain the level of competence they need to do the job well. Then there are those who never reached competence because they never put in the work to attain it.

My guess is that you'll have difficulty attracting and retaining the former over the latter. Perhaps one assumption that's helpful to voice (and feel free to disagree with me here) is that most of folks in the former camp are going to have multiple offers and even a high FAANG/startup salary already -- that's because plenty of companies are fine screening for folks who want that and find sustainable work hours (== "work not being the most important thing in their lives") a key part of reducing burnout and the attendant organizational replacement costs. They just want the competence part.

And so that will leave the latter category. What I can say having interviewed hundreds of candidates (many as a hiring manager) at growth stage firms is -- it's hard to even recruit what you're willing to pay for, let alone getting more than what you pay for. Buying a lemon is expensive; you still pay the recruiting costs (either time or money) and you pay the opportunity costs to try and make a not so great candidate do good work. It's like trying to squeeze blood from a stone. It's a real seller's market for talent right now. I heartily encourage you to try and prove me wrong, and if you do, more power to you. But if you run into issues, perhaps consider a couple of the things I've pointed out.

There's no harm in trying to buy a lunch for less than the lowest median price, or for free. But you shouldn't be surprised if it's not possible. At a certain point, you'll probably get hungry enough that you'll realize that such a desire is penny-wise, pound foolish. The reality is that you need to pay market price for your lunch in order to eat.

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#262
post #28
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is $500k really "average" engineer compensation at top tech companies? That's the average compensation for an L6 at Google, which has an average tenure of 13.2 years https://www.levels.fyi/charts.html . Many people will max-out at L5 in there careers. Compensation is really good in tech, but I don't think saying "$500k/yr total comp for average engineers" is helping anybody.

> Is $500k really "average" engineer compensation at top tech companies? (from my own experience) Absolutely not.

What is average compensation at top tech companies if average compensation at normal companies is $120k-$160k/yr?

https://www.levels.fyi/ you can't scroll 15 seconds there without running into a $250k+ compensation package.

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#263
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have good news for you: https://levels.fyi :)

A better question might be, why doesn't levels.fyi include the actual pay bands that companies have to disclose upon request to candidates instead of just reported compensation?

Companies only have to disclose base salary. 30-50%+ of tech compensation is through equity, etc.

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. I left a good salary behind and went 1/2 time for a super small company this year. Great decision. Money isn’t everything.

That's easy to say after having had a high paying position for a while, which would give you the opportunity to build some financial stability. Never having had any stability, money plays a much larger role.

Well, yes. It wouldn't have been a good decision for me 20 years ago. But it was a good decision this year. Context is important. Money is important, obviously. But once you have a certain level of stability in your life, other priorities begin to overtake it.

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small companies with smart hiring managers or owners should know that if they pay candidates, especially highly skilled ones, not enough, they will probably jump ship after one or two years which is exactly the period after which employees reach a level of productivity that brings enough value for companies to justify the hiring.

In all the places I've worked, every engineer knew there was another place where they'd likely earn significantly more. Yet, they didn't jump ship. These were not high turnaround places. Either my experience is exceptional, or your implication that money is the only thing that matters about a job is wrong.

At one place I've been, the engineers held this same view but would need to move somewhere far off or to the parent company across the country. Also, some might have jumped to more money only for the new employer to learn they aren't very good engineers. I was IT and often was setting up or resolving EE dev issues because they wrote code with a gui and didn't actually now how the hardware worked or connected to their PC reliably. Or it was all on the one offline XP laptop that dual boots to Win2000. They might have an $8k+ engineer dev station with secure VMs for Xp an 2k but still used the old laptop because it was familiar...

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#266
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is $500k really "average" engineer compensation at top tech companies? (from my own experience) Absolutely not.

What is average compensation at top tech companies if average compensation at normal companies is $120k-$160k/yr? https://www.levels.fyi/ you can't scroll 15 seconds there without running into a $250k+ compensation package.

> average compensation at normal companies is $120k-$160k/yr

This also doesn't like up with my experience. It's hard to get true averages for things like this in America.

Also, 250k is a lot less than 500k. It's still a ton of money -- I don't mean to say that top companies don't pay you well. They absolutely do. But 500k is a TON of money.

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#267
post #36

Not useful advice. I need a way to signal how little money I'm willing to take to make me more attractive to bottom-feeding companies, because I unfortunately need to eat.

Intentionally signalling that you are worth less is also a signal that you are a risky or bad hire (for example: that no competitor is interested in you), unless you are looking for a minimum wage job.

Yeah, that's why it's tricky.

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm very skeptical you can tell from an interview who's good. As we build out our salary comparison startup, peerwyse.com, I intend to openly offer properly shit salaries but great "everything else": some level of budgetary autonomy, a family first mentality, option to work three or four days a week for (50% or 75% of pay) and 25% of accumulated total comp on the day you leave us (whether by redundancy, better job or…

> option to work three or four days a week for (50% or 75% of pay) Work 60% for 50% pay or work 80% for 75% pay? Sounds like a raw deal to me.

Perhaps, but if my current employer would let me take a 25% pay cut to drop down to four-days a week I would bite their hand off. Differential preferences are, ultimately, what create a market.

There is, however, clearly something broken in the labour market though. The progressive income tax system in the UK means that someone working a five day week for ~$160k p.a. would only see a 12.5% reduction in net income if they could drop down to four-days per week.

Re: Salary Negotiation: Make More Money, Be More Valued (2012)

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you're in the bay area as well? I'm arguing against the specific examples, not negotiating in general (that is a good thing to do). I really don't see these long messages/emails getting anywhere, in my experience HR have dropped the ball for less than that. It's over the top to send them long messages in writing that you will never accept whatever number they give and reserve the right to disagree anytime.

Nope, middle-tier US city. One of the offers was FAANG, but a small office. To be clear, I did not do most of this over email, but I used very similar wording in my phone calls. I never had more than 2 offers at once, and I don't think you need to try and time everything so that you can bet everyone against each other. You really just need 1 other good offer, which was my case. And non-negotiable deadlines have alway…

Counter example: Got offer from two companies, the second a few weeks later.

Preferred the second but their offer was slightly lower. They could match easily (big company) but they didn't want to. I got calls by HR and by the manager to convince me to take the job but they wouldn't bulge on the offer.

Well. Went to work for the first company. I still got a call from HR after I started working at the company, to try to get me. I was upfront, I like your company and your project more, I want to work for you, all you have to do is to match £XYZ salary and I can start working for you on the XYth (notice period). They still refused to match the offer.

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