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Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

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Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#51

Post by wegs »

croissants wrote: post #16

Unsolicited advice for any potential PhD students choosing between schools/advisors: you should try very hard to talk to current PhD students, preferably in person or at least over the phone or video call (at any rate, not in writing). Try to talk to as many as possible. Good advisors will probably have a few students who will speak up for them, and great advisors almost certainly will. In contrast, bad advisors will…

Former students too.

Talk to them, and look up what they're doing. If a lot of former students ended up where you see yourself in 10 years, that's a great sign. If a lot of former students are in dead-end careers, that's a bad sign.

Of course, that discriminates against tenure-track faculty, but avoiding tenure-track faculty is good advice too. Tenured professors have the luxury of being able to care about you. Tenure-track need to do what it takes to succeed.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#52

Post by wegs »

djaque wrote: post #10
GlenTheMachine wrote: post #2

MIT is FAR from the only offender here, so much so that I find it odd to be calling MIT out in particular. And abuse takes a lot of forms. My advisor once went eighteen months without ever laying eyes on one of his doctoral students.

For what it's worth, I've actually been warned against their physics department for grad school. The other rumour I heard is that Harvard is even worse (for physics grad students). Tons of toxic behaviour like sabotaging labmates in the name of competition and advisors holding onto students for like a year after they should have graduated to pump out that last paper from them.

Physics and bio departments tend to be the most toxic. Students have no BATNA.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#53

Post by wegs »

shuntress wrote: post #42
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #29

"Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" - Lord Acton The underlying issue is the huge power differential between advisers and students. Whenever there is such a power differential, abuse is almost inevitable. I fear that unless that power differential gets addressed, any solutions are going to just be superficial band-aids on a festering wound.

I disagree. The power differential is not the underlying issue. Power is certainly a part of it but the underlying issue comes down to oversight + accountability. Both in specific written rules and in general societal norms that influence how those rules are used.

Lack of accountability is part of the power structure. At MIT, if you do something sufficiently nasty as a faculty member to embarrass the Institute, everyone is now pressured into signing NDAs / non-disclosures. If you don't, you're liable to get scapegoated yourself.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#54

Post by zwaps »

Infamous Professor at my university (eminent statistician):

- Says he prefers Chinese students because they shut up and do the work without asking

- "Your first research idea belongs to me"

- Has apparently thrown coffee mugs at students

- Walks out or stops grad seminars he is unhappy with

He stays, because he brings in a lot of money.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#55

Post by fireflies_ »

wegs wrote: post #52
djaque wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, I've actually been warned against their physics department for grad school. The other rumour I heard is that Harvard is even worse (for physics grad students). Tons of toxic behaviour like sabotaging labmates in the name of competition and advisors holding onto students for like a year after they should have graduated to pump out that last paper from them.

Physics and bio departments tend to be the most toxic. Students have no BATNA.

I'm a bit surprised to hear it put this way. Aren't physics students usually welcome in finance as quants?

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#56

Post by HarryHirsch »

m0zg wrote: post #26
croissants wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is possible that the author grew up always getting participation trophies and now isn't getting any (far more likely, IMO) Why do you think it's "far more likely" that the student is the problem?

Because you don't get to stick around if you abuse people to the extent described in the article. At least I haven't seen it, in a quarter century of my adult life. I quite frequently see folks who treat any demands that they do what they've signed up to do as "abuse" though. Think about it: say you are a judge and you wanted to _really_ understand why someone is divorcing their spouse. Would you listen to just one s…

Would you listen to just one spouse or both?

Here's the dirty secret: competent wifebeaters look like really splendid people to all the world. The incompetent ones without social skills are weeded out early, that leaves the good ones.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#57

Post by VectorLock »

jimhefferon wrote: post #11
pavanky wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is there any more context to this? All I could find is this: https://www.ccs.neu.edu/~shivers/advisor-stmt-original.txt

OS also has this: https://scsh.net/docu/html/man.html (I understand it to be intended as humorous, BTW.)

Maybe we are a bit more "puritanical" but I think yes today even joking about pulling a gun would be seen as a "bad idea."

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#58

Post by chrisseaton »

etrautmann wrote: post #45
yardie wrote: post #15

I was an undergraduate work-study student working in my university lab. I got to talking with a Ph.D student helping set up his equipment, "how long you been working on this?" "Almost 10 years." "Seems really long." "Yes, normally it's 5 years but I can't enough time to finish it. I'm always working on Prof. Engineer's research projects." "I mean can't you just leave?" "No, not at all. You are completely beholden to…

This is really odd to me. In most contexts I’ve experienced, the professor’s research and the student’s are more or less one and the same. Yes, you might have an extra project, but how could someone get stuck for an extra five years?

> In most contexts I’ve experienced, the professor’s research and the student’s are more or less one and the same.

A PhD is an individual research degree - ideally you’re supposed to be working on your own ideas not someone else’s.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#59

Post by wegs »

fireflies_ wrote: post #55
wegs wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Physics and bio departments tend to be the most toxic. Students have no BATNA.

I'm a bit surprised to hear it put this way. Aren't physics students usually welcome in finance as quants?

(1) Most don't want to be quants. It's a soul-sucking no work-life-balance career path. You're getting paid better, but it's a hyper-abusive work environment.

(2) Quant hiring is super-competitive. most physics students wouldn't get jobs. A lot of quants are physicists, but the converse isn't true.

(3) And students? Not so much. Quants like to hire Ph.Ds or possibly ABDs.

Ones who are ALSO good programmers can go the CS route, but most aren't. You need to do basic programming to do physics, but not industry-grade software engineering.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#60

Post by MereInterest »

wiredfool wrote: post #23
croissants wrote: post #16

Unsolicited advice for any potential PhD students choosing between schools/advisors: you should try very hard to talk to current PhD students, preferably in person or at least over the phone or video call (at any rate, not in writing). Try to talk to as many as possible. Good advisors will probably have a few students who will speak up for them, and great advisors almost certainly will. In contrast, bad advisors will…

Another bit of advice, see if the lab has had any suicides in recent memory. Also, if one or more occurs, gtfo before the stress gets you.

Divorces, too. A family member was applying to med schools, and during one of the visits there was a boast of a >100% divorce rate among students. Every married student who entered that program was divorced by the end, as were some who got married during the program. To have such a stressful program is bad enough, but to boast about it as a sign of prestige and dedication is even worse.
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