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Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

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Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#31

Post by hinkley »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #29

"Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" - Lord Acton The underlying issue is the huge power differential between advisers and students. Whenever there is such a power differential, abuse is almost inevitable. I fear that unless that power differential gets addressed, any solutions are going to just be superficial band-aids on a festering wound.

"It is said that power corrupts, but actually it’s more true that power attracts the corruptible. The sane are usually attracted by other things than power." - David Brin

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#32

Post by neolog »

wiredfool wrote: post #23
croissants wrote: post #16

Unsolicited advice for any potential PhD students choosing between schools/advisors: you should try very hard to talk to current PhD students, preferably in person or at least over the phone or video call (at any rate, not in writing). Try to talk to as many as possible. Good advisors will probably have a few students who will speak up for them, and great advisors almost certainly will. In contrast, bad advisors will…

Another bit of advice, see if the lab has had any suicides in recent memory. Also, if one or more occurs, gtfo before the stress gets you.

Are there labs with more than one recent suicide?

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#33

Post by croissants »

m0zg wrote: post #26
croissants wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is possible that the author grew up always getting participation trophies and now isn't getting any (far more likely, IMO) Why do you think it's "far more likely" that the student is the problem?

Because you don't get to stick around if you abuse people to the extent described in the article. At least I haven't seen it, in a quarter century of my adult life. I quite frequently see folks who treat any demands that they do what they've signed up to do as "abuse" though. Think about it: say you are a judge and you wanted to _really_ understand why someone is divorcing their spouse. Would you listen to just one s…

> you don't get to stick around if you abuse people to the extent described in the article

It's very uncommon for student complaints to affect a professor's employment, especially a tenured one. As long as the professor brings in grant money, doesn't piss off the entire department, and graduates at least a few students, they are probably fine. It would take something beyond generic cruelty to students for a person that checks all three boxes to not "stick around" --- think something illegal or against university rules, and with clear evidence.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#34

Post by jasonjayr »

waterhouse wrote: post #20
pavanky wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is there any more context to this? All I could find is this: https://www.ccs.neu.edu/~shivers/advisor-stmt-original.txt

The page that used to link to it said, "At MIT, my students chose me after reading a [little thumbnail bio](link to just the first paragraph) published by the undergraduate office. But you can see the [original, pre-censored version](the link you posted) that I mailed in." Much of Shivers's (excellent) humor has been purged from his home page; that may unfortunately be necessary in today's more puritanical times.

Is this the same Dr. Shivers that's running for a Senate Seat in MA?

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#35

Post by tyingq »

yardie wrote: post #15

I was an undergraduate work-study student working in my university lab. I got to talking with a Ph.D student helping set up his equipment, "how long you been working on this?" "Almost 10 years." "Seems really long." "Yes, normally it's 5 years but I can't enough time to finish it. I'm always working on Prof. Engineer's research projects." "I mean can't you just leave?" "No, not at all. You are completely beholden to…

Ouch. Think I'd just research real world salaries for the Masters degree and likely flee.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#36

Post by waterhouse »

jasonjayr wrote: post #34
waterhouse wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The page that used to link to it said, "At MIT, my students chose me after reading a [little thumbnail bio](link to just the first paragraph) published by the undergraduate office. But you can see the [original, pre-censored version](the link you posted) that I mailed in." Much of Shivers's (excellent) humor has been purged from his home page; that may unfortunately be necessary in today's more puritanical times.

Is this the same Dr. Shivers that's running for a Senate Seat in MA?

Googling a bit, all I see are a Dr. Shiva running for Senate in MA, and a Dr. Ayanna Shivers in Missouri. In either case, no, different person.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#37

Post by T-A »

m0zg wrote: post #26
croissants wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is possible that the author grew up always getting participation trophies and now isn't getting any (far more likely, IMO) Why do you think it's "far more likely" that the student is the problem?

Because you don't get to stick around if you abuse people to the extent described in the article. At least I haven't seen it, in a quarter century of my adult life. I quite frequently see folks who treat any demands that they do what they've signed up to do as "abuse" though. Think about it: say you are a judge and you wanted to _really_ understand why someone is divorcing their spouse. Would you listen to just one s…

> you don't get to stick around if you abuse people to the extent described in the article

This went on for decades before there were consequences:

https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-news/geoff-marcy-exopl...

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#38

Post by wiredfool »

neolog wrote: post #32
wiredfool wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another bit of advice, see if the lab has had any suicides in recent memory. Also, if one or more occurs, gtfo before the stress gets you.

Are there labs with more than one recent suicide?

I’m a little hazy on it now, but my sister's lab had at least one while she was there, and it directly led to her death a few years later.

It was ... not a healthy environment.

Some warning signs would have been easier to see from the same coast, and some of them were obvious in hindsight.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#39

Post by hinkley »

NicolasGorden wrote: post #7

> Too often I have been told to be proud of the great work I am a part of, as if this should outweigh the negative and harmful things myself and others have experienced. Actually, that's how it works in the real world from my experience. Most geniuses have terrible shadows that are as dark and long as they are brilliant and tall. Most of us feel really lucky to get things done and be a part of something, and when we…

You need enough hubris to overcome friction, to dismiss or at least reframe the question, "Surely if this were possible, someone else would have thought of it first, right?"

But you still get one quadrant that's mostly assholes and another that's more reasonable people.

For a given event, the observed population is a factor of the number of distinct occurrences and the duration of each occurrence (eg, why Apple sales numbers are smaller than usage numbers). A kind genius will know when they are beaten, and wrap up the effort. The asshole will persist (increasing duration) and deflect (increasing anecdotes, and the likelihood those anecdotes will be recalled).

Essentially you have not only survivor bias in effect, but also the Availability Heuristic telling you that if it's easier to recall 5 instances of assholes instead of nice people, then there must be a lot more assholes.

Re: Abuse isn’t an “advising style”: Consequences of MIT sheltering abusive mentors

#40

Post by temp667 »

This comes via Graduate Students for a Healthy MIT, Black Graduate Student Association, and Graduate Student Council Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion committee as a bit of context - the author themselves is anonymous.

Note that I've seen advisors who came through an older system (ie, if this prof was older) not mesh well with new groups of candidates.

You OBVIOUSLY need to talk to a few students - ideally those with a somewhat similar background to yours - to get a sense of fit.

Some notes.

In old system, if a grad student had kids (usually you waited till much more plentiful back then tenure track position to start family), the (male) grad student's partner stayed home full time with the children. Now families often have two working / studying parents - so your grad student is MUCH more likely to have more parental responsibilities - which despite what anyone says IS a big distraction (yes, I know lean in says you can have it all, but raising kids is wonderful but also takes time).

Manner of speaking etc. The article mentions the advisor making fun of how folks speak (??). That's a weird thing to make fun of frankly, but groups someone advised used to be very homogenous. I notice this just with age gap - so much more shorthand / casual communication style.

"My advisor’s words would pierce right through me and the period at the end of each sentence felt like a punch in the gut."

Pretty intense stuff! A period = a punch?

BTW - I think 80% of the phd system is a bit of a racket :) But that's only because I got to hear (daily) complaints about advisors and research and being a phd candidate (and then postdoc hell continues this!!).

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