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Hotel guest in Thailand jailed for defamation after posting bad online reviews

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Re: Hotel guest in Thailand jailed for defamation after posting bad online reviews

#261
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but Americans are not the worst, no matter what you as the stereotypical self-deprecating American may think. If you asked Thai people who the worst are, they'd probably say Chinese tourists.

What if “they” didn’t think stereotypically and instead were open to the idea that individual people might think individually, regardless of race, culture, or nationality?

Ironically, this is an extremely Western mindset you're what-iffing. And you don't need to rely on stereotypes for a population to have a preference(or viewpoint) on something.

If you say pizza is Americans favorite food, because 60% of individuals you ask say pizza is their favorite food, then no stereotype is in play.

Re: Hotel guest in Thailand jailed for defamation after posting bad online reviews

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of what you said about “those guys,” which is barely relevant to the story, if we are to believe the business owners, they’re right in suing for defamation (the guy left 3 reviews out of spite) However the problem is that the police considers this a good enough reason to jail someone working there legally after picking him up from his workplace. I don’t think that’s fair.

It’s not fair and I agree with you. But it’s the law in Thailand. And sometimes “those guys” believe that the laws in other countries don’t apply to them because they think it’s “not fair” and not the same as the laws in their countries.

Again here you're just venting about "those guys." Some laws are "the law" in Nazi Germany too (not to cite more modern examples), so it's perfectly fine to call them out.

Re: Hotel guest in Thailand jailed for defamation after posting bad online reviews

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of what you said about “those guys,” which is barely relevant to the story, if we are to believe the business owners, they’re right in suing for defamation (the guy left 3 reviews out of spite) However the problem is that the police considers this a good enough reason to jail someone working there legally after picking him up from his workplace. I don’t think that’s fair.

> someone working there legally There is literally zero evidence that he's working here (Thailand) legally . The article only says he works here, at a school. That immigration police arrested him rather than "regular" police, suggests that his employment may not be above board.

They took him 250km away to where the hotel is and imprisoned him there. Does that sound like he was arrested for immigration troubles or this specific defamation suit?

Thai police can't speak English, so it wouldn't be out of the ordinary to ask the immigration police (which, by definition, deals with foreigners) to do it.

Re: Hotel guest in Thailand jailed for defamation after posting bad online reviews

#264
post #29

The part near the end of the article is confusing. >While this reaction by the hotel does sound excessive I’d give them the benefit of the doubt that this guest behaved like a total idiot while at the property and then turned around with very unflattering descriptions and manufactured truths aka lies about this resort. He then refused to discuss the matter with the hotel and instead of stopping even accelerated his o…

This is double edge sword for Thailand, maybe corrupt justice system can work as a new revenue source, but it will definitely impact new tourist going there. I had a good time there, but I remember my expectations were low. But news like this make me cross that country from the map of future traveling. I remember feeling when at entrance in Singapore I got stamp on passport with small print warning that "drug usage i…

A few years ago there was a scam in the Philippines where airport security staff would drop bullets into foreign traveller luggage so that when it was discovered by their colleagues they could shake down tourists by extortion in exchange for getting off the hook:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninoy_Aquino_International_Air...

As for Thailand and other Asian countries, what you must understand about Asian culture in general as a westerner is the tremendous weight of saving face there. Something that you might think of as relatively innocuous and the cost of doing business, like raising your voice, a bad hotel review, or a negative restaurant write-up (after all, nobody anywhere gets 100% five star reviews) is something that creates dishonor and triggers immediate defense mechanisms that escalate according to the severity of how much face has been lost. Embarrassing Asians in public can cause them to feel that they are losing social standing, reputation, influence, dignity, and honour, and you should consider whether it's worth the hassle over something trivial to put them on the defensive.

Re: Hotel guest in Thailand jailed for defamation after posting bad online reviews

#265

I'm going to stand up on a soapbox and use this incident to flog my pet issue, here. It may not be obvious to everyone how it relates, so bear with me. Many people wonder how a "free speech absolutist", such as myself, can hold the point of view that we do: how can we advocate for absolute free speech when it allows anti-vaxxers or bullies or holocaust deniers or racists or fake news purveyors to freely promote their…

I used to think like you do, and I've increasingly come to disagree. Free speech absolutism was a core belief of the open source and early internet community in the 90s and 00s, which is where I picked it up. The idea was that publishing information would no longer be limited to the claws of established powers, and with anyone able to distribute anything, science and art would flow freely over international borders, global unity would reach unprecedented heights, and humanity would enter a new dawn. It was a very attractive idea, and it was hard to argue against because nothing like it had ever been possible. Then, through the power of capitalism rather than hacker spirit, it came true.

Mark Twain famously said "A lie can travel around the world and back again while the truth is lacing up its boots." Pithy at the time, but now that the experiment of instant global publishing for everyone is playing out in real time, we can see that it's true. You say

> a good idea is stronger than a bad idea

and this is where free speech absolutism has lost me. When everyone has a chance to weigh in on it, false information spreads wider and faster than true information. This isn't a theory any more, there's data now. The average human cannot evaluate true from false, and tend toward false. I'd guess that true things have complexities and ambiguities that make them less engaging than tailored lies.

We are now in an age of truly unrestricted free speech, as opposed to the centuries in which free speech was practically available only to those with a printing press or the like. Given the immense damage that has already been wrought on dozens of fields, I no longer think totally free speech is worth the price. A few angry tripadvisor reviewers going to jail is a small price to pay for continuing to have scientific progress and functioning infrastructure.

Re: Hotel guest in Thailand jailed for defamation after posting bad online reviews

#266
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've broken the site guidelines a ton in this thread. Could you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here? We'd appreciate it.

Why is moderation so heavy ham fisted on this site? I've read the entire thread (as it gives a good idea what to expect as a tourist there) and I have yet to find a comment from anyone that could possibly break some silly rule. People here are intelligent adults, and if something hurts their "feelings" too bad. People need free discussion, ESPECIALLY during this scamdemic where everyone is seriously on edge. Edit: If…

> People here are intelligent adults

If that's true, it's because this community hasn't yet gone too far down the path to brain death followed by heat death, which has traditionally been the fate of internet communities. The HN guidelines are a way of attempting to stave off that fate: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so....

Swipes like "What are you talking about", "Wrong", "You’re inventing things and twisting reality", "The ridiculous part is your comment", "Are you for real", "What are you talking about", "Your statement has no connection to reality", "You apparently have not read enough" (all of which unnameduser1 managed to post in just this thread!) are obviously against the HN guidelines, which ask people to be kind, not to call names, and so on: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

It's our experience that when internet commenters come with sharp elbows in this way, it has negative effects on community. Perhaps you feel that these things are no big deal—certainly judgments can differ. But usually people who think 'no big deal' are deriving their standards from what works well in smaller, more cohesive communities. My favorite example of that is rugby players who beat the crap out of each other and then go out drinking together afterwards. Other examples might be an academic colloquium where the participants go hard after each other's ideas, or literary circles where people trade barbed witticisms. Or simply just regular watercooler conversation or talking smack with friends.

All of those environments are richer and able to sustain a much wider range than we can here. It may not feel like it, but HN is a broadcasting channels to millions of people. Broadcasting channels can't function the way that closed, intimate environments can—they are much too incohesive. People are far quicker to hear things that haven't actually been said (or meant), have extreme reactions, respond in kind or worse, and we end up with a Tacoma Narrows Bridge effect.

So yeah, we have to operate with safety factors that to some extent make discussion more bland (a definite cost) but have the effect of preserving the community for relatively high-signal communication, as opposed to shallow hostility, which eventually leads to screaming matches and then, as I said, heat death. Moderating HN as if it didn't need those safety factors would in my opinion be a big mistake.

If that seems wrong to you, it's probably because you're assuming a degree of stability that doesn't exist here. This is an easy assumption to make, because if X doesn't seem so bad, it's natural to think "what's wrong with X" and feel like the moderators are "heavy ham fisted" for scolding X. The problem is that X is not an end state in the state machine.

If it were merely a few sharp elbows, maybe that wouldn't be a big deal—but large internet forums are not stable this way. You can't stop at sharp elbows, because when people feel affronted, they escalate. Sharp elbows lead to nose punches, then brawls, and so on. If we start to go down that road, the most desirable and intelligent users will simply stop coming, leading to a higher concentration of low-signal/high-noise behavior, which will accelerate the feedback loop, and before long there will be no one left who feels that "people here are intelligent adults".

If anyone wants more explanation, here are some past ones:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24548414

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21633967

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15378909

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9378899

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7906377

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7742471

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

Re: Hotel guest in Thailand jailed for defamation after posting bad online reviews

#267
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've banned this account for repeatedly posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait to HN. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They are at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . The basic idea is: if you have a substantive point to make, make it thoughtfully; if you don't, please don't comment unti…

Hmmmm. Just to point out, that specific comment is Australian humour. It's not good Australian humour, but it's humour. It's taking the piss out of (mocking) a "stereotypical Australian" reaction, as commonly found in pubs and other (cheaper) drinking establishments.

Sure, but the issue is https://news.ycombinator.com/posts?id=throwawaynothx, not that specific comment.

Re: Hotel guest in Thailand jailed for defamation after posting bad online reviews

#268
post #29

The part near the end of the article is confusing. >While this reaction by the hotel does sound excessive I’d give them the benefit of the doubt that this guest behaved like a total idiot while at the property and then turned around with very unflattering descriptions and manufactured truths aka lies about this resort. He then refused to discuss the matter with the hotel and instead of stopping even accelerated his o…

Sounds like a good reason to never go there as a tourist, actually. And no, that is clearly not what they’re trying to communicate (although the actual goal remains unclear). If the premise was “don’t write a review, they’re corrupt and will spuriously jail you”, then they wouldn’t offer the hotel chain the benefit of the doubt.

I've been to Thailand before. It's really great. Everyone is friendly and calmed down. For instance, the cars in Bangkok hardly honk, even if the traffic is bad. So you can feel like you're on vacation even in the urban areas.

Re: Hotel guest in Thailand jailed for defamation after posting bad online reviews

#269
post #52
post #29

The part near the end of the article is confusing. >While this reaction by the hotel does sound excessive I’d give them the benefit of the doubt that this guest behaved like a total idiot while at the property and then turned around with very unflattering descriptions and manufactured truths aka lies about this resort. He then refused to discuss the matter with the hotel and instead of stopping even accelerated his o…

For anyone looking to dig deeper into the allegations of corruption on the islands and how it may have contributed to the murder of the couple in 2014, this is a good place to start: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/23/briton-thail...

[deleted]

Re: Hotel guest in Thailand jailed for defamation after posting bad online reviews

#270

This is a big problem in the UAE too. Any critique of anything that makes the country look less than a perfect paradise may get you fined, jailed and deported. For example, some Swiss journalists were apprehended for taking pictures of the poor condition of laborers in Abu Dhabi. If you try to report a crime, the police will grill you instead (why did you take pictures of the person sitting in the street selling shad…

(and of course, censorship and rug sweeping)
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