Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble) • Hacker News Board

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#91

Post by rdtsc » Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 3:26 AM UTC

kjksf wrote: post #42

rdtsc wrote: post #11

> they only look like a bubble because we’ve learned to treat education as a market-driven commodity rather than a social good how can you not treat it as a market-driven commodity when a 4 year college degree can cost $120K ?

In the U.S. That is not the case in every country in the world (many have free college education) so it's not an inherent property of higher ed to be "marked-driven commodity". Therefore it's valid to criticize the U.S. implementation for being that given that it doesn't have to be.

That is what I was trying to highlight, how in US something like that is bound to end up on Wall-Street. Legislation will be rewritten, lobbyists and PR will be involved and it ends up trading just like real-estate, oil and other commodities.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#92

Post by random42 » Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 3:42 AM UTC

entangld wrote: post #49

hugh3 wrote: post #2

What is it about this subject that encourages such hyperbole and overgeneralization? For what it's worth, I looked it up (thanks linkedin) and the author of this piece spent four years at some place called Linfield College in McMinville, Oregon, getting a BA in History, Philosophy, French and German. It's possible that her personal experiences may not generalize.

Are you attempting to attack her credibility or can you address her point? Steve Jobs never graduated college. I would still take his opinion on education. This is an argument that can be logically debated without having to go to credentials. Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory. -- Leonardo da Vinci

> Steve Jobs never graduated college. I would still take his opinion on education.

Yes, Steve Jobs is a real-world success. He obviously did not feel the need to finish the college, and took a deliberate decision to do so. His opinion on education certainly would have a different angle and substance that would be worth hearing.

But that is because of the reasons stated earlier he is qualified to opine on the subject matter, the same cannot be said for everyone.

PS - I did not read the article so cannot judge, how qualified the author is to make a opinion of this matter. But the comment is generally applicable, anyhow.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#93

Post by gammarator » Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 3:53 AM UTC

maxharris wrote: post #67

cparedes wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> University students don't become experts in anything. You're absolutely right. A bachelor's degree is supposed to be a mark of well roundedness, not specialization. > English literature students, for example, just leave with some long essays under their belts, they don't graduate as well-read authorities on different epochs of literature. They're not supposed to be authorities - if they wanted to dedicate time to b…

A bachelor's degree is supposed to be a mark of well roundedness, not specialization. What is "well-roundedness" and why is it a good thing? I went to a good school, and I was forced to take all of the worthless general requirements that had nothing to do with anything I cared about. The only thing I still have from those classes is debt. Most people I know tell me that they've had the same experience I did.

What is "well-roundedness" and why is it a good thing?

A serious question: Have you ever, since you graduated, wished you knew more about a topic outside the field you got your degree in? Why? Ever wish you had more background in economics, history, politics, or science so you could have more informed opinions on the news or make better choices in your life or at the voting booth?

Now, imagine you could go back and take a good intro course in some of those fields of interest, instead of the "worthless" ones you had. Would that kind of "well-rounded" be more satisfying?

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#94

Post by entangld » Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 4:00 AM UTC

random42 wrote: post #92

entangld wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you attempting to attack her credibility or can you address her point? Steve Jobs never graduated college. I would still take his opinion on education. This is an argument that can be logically debated without having to go to credentials. Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory. -- Leonardo da Vinci

> Steve Jobs never graduated college. I would still take his opinion on education. Yes, Steve Jobs is a real-world success. He obviously did not feel the need to finish the college, and took a deliberate decision to do so. His opinion on education certainly would have a different angle and substance that would be worth hearing. But that is because of the reasons stated earlier he is qualified to opine on the subject…

What makes him qualified to opine on education? The fact that he's a real world success? What's with all of the deference to authority on HN?

I may defer to experts on radiation in Fukushima, but education is a philosophical argument. Even the experts aren't really experts on it. Can we describe the difference between good and bad teachers yet? Not really. Degrees do not protect anyone or any institution from criticism.

Jobs said he wanted to finish college, but couldn't afford it. He's definitely pro-learning. The author was too. Our society is getting very defensive about an educational system that is failing its citizens.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#95

Post by danenania » Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 4:09 AM UTC

mkramlich wrote: post #86

entangld wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intellectual humility is a beautiful thing. Education usually blasts away many natural preconceived notions about the world. It makes engineers run tests and scientists run experiments. What better way is there to get people to question their own knowledge but by showing them other viewpoints? It also arrogantly presupposes the professor's intellectual environment to be less bubble-like than the students' I think the…

> Education usually blasts away many natural preconceived notions about the world. In some cases, agreed. However, in other cases, it seems to do just the opposite: it seems to introduce new or enhance pre-existing biases and philosophies. From my perspective, it appears to happen most often with the so-called "soft" sciences, and most especially in things like literature and gender/race and non-mainstream sexual stu…

Math and hard sciences also introduce and enhance pre-existing biases and philosophies and exhibit cult-like qualities--for example, a belief that other disciplines are less intellectually important or serious.

Don't get me wrong, math and the hard sciences certainly provide extremely important and foundational knowledge, but the prevalence of egotism and nerd machismo in these fields is as obnoxious to me as the flakiness that can be found in 'softer' fields.

Alas, I agree that it's all a big ripoff anyway. Just another entrenched, obsolete business model waiting to be put out of its misery.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#96

Post by entangld » Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 4:21 AM UTC

danenania wrote: post #95

mkramlich wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Education usually blasts away many natural preconceived notions about the world. In some cases, agreed. However, in other cases, it seems to do just the opposite: it seems to introduce new or enhance pre-existing biases and philosophies. From my perspective, it appears to happen most often with the so-called "soft" sciences, and most especially in things like literature and gender/race and non-mainstream sexual stu…

Math and hard sciences also introduce and enhance pre-existing biases and philosophies and exhibit cult-like qualities--for example, a belief that other disciplines are less intellectually important or serious. Don't get me wrong, math and the hard sciences certainly provide extremely important and foundational knowledge, but the prevalence of egotism and nerd machismo in these fields is as obnoxious to me as the fla…

Problems regarding close-mindedness of different disciplines are complaints shared among the educated.

But some uninformed people believe many things that are factually unsupported (vaccine myths, economic myths, etc). These are not things that educated people argue about. People who argue without any factual or reasonable theoretical basis do not better our society.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#97

Post by omnivore » Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 4:27 AM UTC

Goladus wrote: post #78

entangld wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you attempting to attack her credibility or can you address her point? Steve Jobs never graduated college. I would still take his opinion on education. This is an argument that can be logically debated without having to go to credentials. Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory. -- Leonardo da Vinci

The only points she makes are based on unfounded assumptions. She has no argument to attack. There is nothing to debate logically. She would be making the appeal to authority, except she doesn't even bother to do that. She just appeals to common sense ("you don't have to be an economist to... etc"). Edit: perhaps I should say any of her good points are overshadowed by (and mostly unrelated to) the blatant exaggeratio…

I think it's just a tactic of that sort of blog with a following to throw a bunch of claims without making a real point, ask a question and then wait for fawning commenters to respond. Which is pretty much what happened.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#98

Post by ebiester » Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 4:31 AM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #56

ebiester wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that education doesn't want acceptance criteria; rather, any criteria that could be defined could easily be gamed. To nearly every professor I've met, the criteria should be something similar to this: A student is introduced to a wide variety of subjects and challenged by a variety of views outside of the cultural bubble in which the student was born; such so that an undergraduate student leaves better prepa…

To nearly every professor I've met, the criteria should be something similar to this: A student is introduced to a wide variety of subjects and challenged by a variety of views outside of the cultural bubble in which the student was born; such so that an undergraduate student leaves better prepared to participate in educated society and make wise decisions in civic and public discourse. I am rather iffy on this idea,…

Because, of course, people are completely incapable of forming their own opinions when given a set of arguments. :)

The point is that the student is exposed to multiple viewpoints, and gains experience interacting with various arguments. That even includes weird things like queer theory (which I must say, makes a lot of sense as a gay man. I can't say how much it would relate to someone cisgendered and straight.)

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#99

Post by gammarator » Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 4:34 AM UTC

enjo wrote: post #27

cj wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of graduates do not leave college having intensively studied anything as rigorous as physics or mathematics. Most leave college with a degree that they didn't work very hard to earn. College offers the opportunity to do what you did and work your ass off, but most have no such desire.

Again, a massive generalization that you quite frankly don't have a bit of data to support.

Well, here's a big discussion in the NYT worrying about the value of business degrees specifically: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/04/17/why-look-dow...

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#100

Post by omouse » Tue, Apr 19, 2011, 4:36 AM UTC

Wow, I like this article a lot. It's anti-capitalist and anti-turning everything into some profit-motivated enterprise, but it stops short of using communist/socialist/anarchist/revolutionary terminology!

What an excellent read. The challenge is to see if the system can be reformed at all (most likely not) and to concentrate on building up alternatives that are more meaningful.