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Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

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Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theoretically, CCP could abuse location services to track movements of military personnel and civilians in a war. Since FB isn't Chinese, that is less of an issue for large scale surveilance. Also, if the Chinese had a zero day that they could exploit by pushing a malicious TikTok update, they could get root access to these phones and use them for surveillance on a large scale. Sure, this is all hypothetical, but it'…

Fed government could simply order all federal employees off tiktok or any other service without legal hurdles. What is the point of banning for the general public.

Let's say a child of a worker working in a nuclear reactor site for "Bring your daughter to work-day". She's ofcourse using tiktok, and guess who has that data now.

This is just an example. If I spend enough time, I can think of a whole lot more examples.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#452
post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely Facebook’s a bigger issue than 60 second videos since any bad actor can target messaging at susceptibile users and no one will know. This just seems like yet another case of Republican double speak. Say one thing do a different thing that just coincidentally happens to grab power over others. Also, what is the method of using a 60 second video platform to share messaging with a crowd who will immediately scrol…

Actually, it is not. I am not R or D, I am Russian programmer who lives in Russia and likes to read. One of things I've read already long ago is about priming: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5266685/ Showing one different pictures change walking speed, at the very least. And effects can last as long as year: http://www.bm.ust.hk/mark/files/staff/Bob/mkwyer-JCP-2014-24... TikTok, being a massive analytic…

Priming is one of the least reproducible effects out there and lies literally at the core of the reproducibility crisis [1]. I'm going to call BS on claims of some sort of spooky weaponization of it.

Edit: To add necessary context for those unaware, TikTok's audience in the US is politically liberal. The buy out of Trump rally tickets a few months ago was organized there [2].

It's true that we should be talking about the security implications of foreign control over our social media platforms. It's also true that we should be concerned about a targeted ban (instead of, say, a general crackdown on foreign social media) on what amounts to a meetinghouse for Trump's critics by the Trump administration itself.

[1] https://replicationindex.com/2017/02/02/reconstruction-of-a-...

[2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2020/07/07/tiktok-...

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#453
post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely Facebook’s a bigger issue than 60 second videos since any bad actor can target messaging at susceptibile users and no one will know. This just seems like yet another case of Republican double speak. Say one thing do a different thing that just coincidentally happens to grab power over others. Also, what is the method of using a 60 second video platform to share messaging with a crowd who will immediately scrol…

Facebook allows anyone to purchase targeted messaging, but it's an American run company which likely makes the difference - there is likely a perception (real or imagined) that FB will be willing & able to combat "enemy" messaging. In regards to the value of 60 second funny videos to share messaging, part of the strength here may be exactly because it's a platform for short, funny videos; as long as the ideas being c…

Then, shouldn't videos on Facebook be banned as well?

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#454
post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a minor issue in the TikTok war. #1 is national security. #2 is trade, level playing field i.e. tit-for-tat policies. Secondary issues are: a) As you say, competitive fears - but TikTok is not a threat in that sense. b) Trump's personal ambitions and elections. TT users apparently screwed up his GOP nomination event. Likely nothing at all to do with CCP, but Trump is an emotional guy, and I think this is 'him…

#1 can be used to justify anything. It also sets a dangerous precedent for other countries to start blocking / severely limiting US social media companies. #2 Blocking apps used for the dissemination of information is a free-speech issue. China blocks information because that's what they believe in. US blocking information is fundamentally against our beliefs. If China jumped off a bridge would we do so as well? #2 h…

You have missed both points entirely.

You're assuming that there are 'free market' conditions here (i.e. competition) - there are not. Not even close.

'Free market' ideals such as 'competition and innovation' are not the issues here, because a) there is no 'free market' and b) we're talking about mass media, which is really not about 'innovation'.

#1 is a very legitimate issue. To control the mass media, is to control a nation, this is not a 'new world order' concept, it's as old as time.

The CCP maintains it's power in China due to it's control over the media, not the army. By suppressing any and all information against them, and controlling all of the messaging people hear, and of course limiting outside access, you can effectively control people.

Media is a protected industry everywhere. Tell me who owns the main media outlets in Sweden? Germany? UK? USA? They are almost universally domestically owned and operated - when they are not (Rupert Murdoch) even then it creates problems.

The very existence of the BBC, CBC (Canada), ABC (Australia) speaks to this.

Imagine if the CCP itself wanted to buy NBC News. Would we allow that? No.

It's not a lite argument to say 'security' can be used for anything, after all any excuse can be used to validate something.

#1 is real.

As far as #2 - you're crossing streams.

China has a completely 'unlevel' playing field vis-a-vis the US in many markets. CCP controls monetary policy, industrial policy, major banks and most major industry players. This is 'not allowed' in free trade, because it means the CCP will do things like 'require large banks to subsidize solar panel makers to produce surplus to dump on US markets and put US players out of business'. This is not a hypothetical - it happened.

China doesn't allow foreign competitors in so many markets: foreign entities must be 51% China owned. They must have CCP officials working at the company to force CCP oversight. They must censor information, provide data to the CCP. Foreign entities must hand over IP to the CCP so they can give it to competitive entities. China puts up all sorts of non-market barriers to competition.

So when we talk about 'number 2' - the US, in order to provide a 'fair trade' scenario, should effectively apply the very same policies.

So imagine:

1) Chinese companies cannot operate in the US unless 51% US ownership. 2) They must employ GOP/CIA/FBI internally in order to effectuate US strategic policy, censorship. 3) Chinese companies must hand over source code and IP, so the US can give it to local companies while the US 'holds up' Chinese competitor in red tape. 4) US government takes control of the Fed, major banks, and provides massive subsidies to Cisco, and subsidizes Ciscos sales internationally with extremely good financing terms. 5) US government uses industrial espionage to grab Chinese IP and invest in local companies, for example, stealing all Huawei's designs etc., copying them, and creating a company to compete with them etc..

Those would be 'tit for tat' policies implying 'fair trade' between the US and China.

Your comments about 'concerns over competitiveness' are actually way, way further down the pile of issues.

As I say, 'national security' is reason enough for the ban.

After that, there are a host of 'fair trade' issues that should be applied.

Only then does it even make sense to start worrying about the more strategic competitive issues, because until then there is no market based competition.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#455
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you propose?

That would be above my paygrade, but you’d start by asking what cards the US holds on the world stage: the dollar, oil, technology (for now anyways).

But that’s also eye for an eye, just of a different kind, is it not?

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. I don’t buy this argument until they ban all Chinese apps. As far as I can tell, it’s just a way to cut off younger voter’s access to information that is critical of Trump. And that’s a generous reading.

The only reason Trump has been able to pull this off is the fact that minors can't vote. If you deny voting rights to a certain group of people, politicians just don't have to care about them at all. They can do things that hurt that group, and no one is going to hold them accountable. At this point, I believe we should stop discriminating based on age.

> At this point, I believe we should stop discriminating based on age.

If the age of voting is lowered to 6 (as some have asked for: [1]) or even removed altogether what stops me from producing 5-10 kids and then having them vote for a political party that I support? That is 5-10 extra votes in just a decade. And if 1000 families do that, that would significantly tilt the outcome of an election. By the time they grow up to understand what their rights are and that they were being exploited by an adult they would feel disgusted that they were used (or rather misused). You are assuming that minors have inherent understanding of political issues at that young age. Most don't. And it is not reasonable to expect them to know.

Voting should only be enabled for those who are completely aware of their rights. Children typically are not. They are not political by nature. They are playful and more interested in learning things around them. Turning them into political ballots waiting to be exploited by adults around them is the last thing we need in this already fractured World.

[1]: https://reason.com/2018/12/07/should-we-let-children-vote-th...

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with an autocracy is that they will not cease until any threat to their existence can be stamped out or controlled. Nations continued to hope Nazi Germany would just stop its expansion and placate Hitler until it was clear he had no intention of stopping. Last week it was discovered that an additional half a million Tibetans [1] were sent to join the Uighurs in labor camps. When do the democracies of the…

>The problem with an autocracy is that they will not cease until any threat to their existence can be stamped out or controlled Yes, I already said I was afraid of the US Government.

The US government is a democracy. Please give peer-reviewed evidence it is not: I know US citizens are entitled to vote in an election.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they cannot buy the same data - the quantity and quality of the data they obtain themselves (through apps like TikTok and WeChat that are running in the background 24/7 while collecting any information possible, such as secretly copying your clipboard which is likely to reveal passwords and other sensitive information) is far higher than what they could pay for. You’re also ignoring the fact that they can use the…

> they’ve for instance chosen to omit the fact that the Wuhan Virus originated in China. Any social media platforms using the term "Wuhan Virus" would be a bigger sign of governmental propaganda than the lack is.

It’s what everyone, including China, referred to it as before the CCP realized how serious it was and went on a campaign to rewrite history and distance themselves from responsibility.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#459

Unlike some other commenters below, I don't believe that this is a privacy issue. Instead, I believe that it is a national security issue because TikTok is controllable by the CCP which is ideologically opposed to the United States. The next global conflict will likely be one between the east and the west, with control of information being advantageous to both sides in the conflict. China already blocks the western I…

Inside China, Bytedance's founder is known as pro-US. They've publicly made pro-US statements.

Furthermore, the CCP has 90+ million members. With the number of employees that Bytedance has in China, you'd expect — by proportion — that they have thousands of employees that are CCP members. But it's just a couple of hundred.

Bytedance's founder has made an effort to make this a global company, not a Chinese company, not a "CCP/state company". He believes in internationalism.

And yet here we are: Mike Pompeo calling him a "mouthpiece of the CCP", and many people on Hacker News believing that Tiktok is a big conspiracy to hack the United States. All without a fair investigation into who Bytedance is, how much of these fears are actually founded, or whether there are more productive solutions than kicking out all things Chinese.

The irony. Can you imagine what all this does to his pro-US stance, or what it does to all the pro-US people in China for that matter? Treating China as an enemy is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Re: Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads from U.S. app stores

#460

Unlike some other commenters below, I don't believe that this is a privacy issue. Instead, I believe that it is a national security issue because TikTok is controllable by the CCP which is ideologically opposed to the United States. The next global conflict will likely be one between the east and the west, with control of information being advantageous to both sides in the conflict. China already blocks the western I…

Inside China, Bytedance's founder is known as pro-US. They've publicly made pro-US statements. Furthermore, the CCP has 90+ million members. With the number of employees that Bytedance has in China, you'd expect — by proportion — that they have thousands of employees that are CCP members. But it's just a couple of hundred. Bytedance's founder has made an effort to make this a global company, not a Chinese company, no…

> ByteDance has had a party committee since 2017 and is headed by CCP secretary and company editor-in-chief Zhang Fuping (張輔評), reported Human Rights Watch. Members of the committee hold regular gatherings at which they study speeches by Chinese Chairman Xi Jinping (習近平) and "pledge to follow the party in technological innovation."

> In addition, ByteDance on April 25, 2019, signed a strategic cooperation agreement with the Ministry of Public Security's Press and Publicity Bureau (公安部新聞宣傳局) in Beijing. The agreement was billed as "aiming to give full play to the professional technology and platform advantages of Toutiao and Tiktok in big data analysis," strengthen the creation and production of "public security new media works," boost "network influence and online discourse power," and enhance "public security propaganda, guidance, influence, and credibility," among other aspects.

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3982027

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