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The long lost manual for the Zuse Z4 has been found

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Re: The long lost manual for the Zuse Z4 has been found

#21
post #10

There's a very lively startup scene in Berlin, but no-one in that scene seems to know that the world's first digital computer was built in Berlin. There's an obscure and easy to miss sign ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Zuse#/media/File:2007-0... ) on the house he lived in while working on it, and another sign at the technical university, but that's about it. No big festivities in his name, no commemorations,…

Isn't SUSE Linux named after Konrad Zuse?

Re: The long lost manual for the Zuse Z4 has been found

#22
post #9

Deutsches Museum has a great collection of computers, including a Cray 1 and an original Apple 1 kit donated by Steve Jobs. However, most of the exhibitions in Deutsches Musem - including the computer science one - seem to be stuck in the 90's.

> seem to be stuck in the 90's.

Not sure if you would like to see newer machines or older ones. If you are complaining about the missing old ones, then it's not true.

The Deutsches Museum in Munich as a Z3 and a Z4:

https://www.deutsches-museum.de/ausstellungen/kommunikation/...

It also has a "Siemens 2002" from 1960.

https://www.deutsches-museum.de/ausstellungen/kommunikation/...

And a UNIVAC I (IBM) from 1956:

https://www.deutsches-museum.de/typo3temp/pics/c0ba1ee858.jp...

Re: The long lost manual for the Zuse Z4 has been found

#23
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people i know in Berlin know that one of the first mechanical calculators is in the technical museum Berlin, but those people don’t know about concepts like turing-equivalent, so they call it a Computer. Many great inventions have a nationalist folklore surrounding it, often ascribing a development to some national hero, while ignoring the process of development as a whole or parallel developments in other count…

The proof that the Z3 is turing complete is pretty funny: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1945455 http://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/inst/ag-ki/rojas_home/documents/...

I knew that there was a proof, but never read the paper before. Now that I did, I think that proof is garbage tbh.

For Turing completeness, a fixed, constant-sized program needs to be able to handle arbitrary inputs and use arbitrary amounts of memory. It's important to distinguish the model from the implementation here. Theoretically, a language like Python is Turing complete. (And BTW you don't need infinite precision integers or anything fancy: you can simply simulate the tape with an object graph.) Practically, every Python program running on a real computer will run out of memory eventually.

Anyway, the translated Z3 programs in this paper contain one case statement for every possible memory location. This means that for a given program size, you're limited to run in O(1) space. That's only as powerful as a finite state machine, not a Turing machine.

I see nothing in the paper that convincingly addresses this limitation. There are some arguments to the effect that practical CPUs have limited address space as well. Which is true, but that argument only shows that those aren't Turing complete either, not that the Z3 magically is.

Maybe there's a subtle point that I overlooked, but at the moment, I'm simply not convinced.

Re: The long lost manual for the Zuse Z4 has been found

#24
post #9

Deutsches Museum has a great collection of computers, including a Cray 1 and an original Apple 1 kit donated by Steve Jobs. However, most of the exhibitions in Deutsches Musem - including the computer science one - seem to be stuck in the 90's.

> seem to be stuck in the 90's. Not sure if you would like to see newer machines or older ones. If you are complaining about the missing old ones, then it's not true. The Deutsches Museum in Munich as a Z3 and a Z4: https://www.deutsches-museum.de/ausstellungen/kommunikation/... It also has a "Siemens 2002" from 1960. https://www.deutsches-museum.de/ausstellungen/kommunikation/... And a UNIVAC I (IBM) from 1956: http…

I think they mean "stuck in the 90s" in the way of presentation and exhibition design, which I'd tend to agree with. They have a lot of cool artifacts, and I can totally see why older relatives raved about it, but to me it felt stuffy and drab compared to other museums when I was there a few years ago.

Re: The long lost manual for the Zuse Z4 has been found

#25
post #10

There's a very lively startup scene in Berlin, but no-one in that scene seems to know that the world's first digital computer was built in Berlin. There's an obscure and easy to miss sign ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Zuse#/media/File:2007-0... ) on the house he lived in while working on it, and another sign at the technical university, but that's about it. No big festivities in his name, no commemorations,…

Isn't SUSE Linux named after Konrad Zuse?

As far as I know it's just an abbreviation that, by accident, is close to "Zuse", but has nothing to do with it (someone might want to correct me here if I'm wrong)

It was developed by Germans, so SuSE means: Software und System-Entwicklung (or english: Software and systems development)

Re: The long lost manual for the Zuse Z4 has been found

#26
post #9

Deutsches Museum has a great collection of computers, including a Cray 1 and an original Apple 1 kit donated by Steve Jobs. However, most of the exhibitions in Deutsches Musem - including the computer science one - seem to be stuck in the 90's.

The Deutsches Museum is currently in a renovating and reconfiguration phase, has been for four years, and will be for at least another year. Things are about to change.

I can but hope it won't change too much. I love the exhibit on nuclear power (with a life-sized cutaway of a containment vessel), the air&space exhibit (which includes a V2, and a piece of the moon) and the Newtonian physics exhibit.

Re: The long lost manual for the Zuse Z4 has been found

#27
post #10

There's a very lively startup scene in Berlin, but no-one in that scene seems to know that the world's first digital computer was built in Berlin. There's an obscure and easy to miss sign ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Zuse#/media/File:2007-0... ) on the house he lived in while working on it, and another sign at the technical university, but that's about it. No big festivities in his name, no commemorations,…

Germans don't care much about those things, because there is so much history everywhere. A small invention like a computer has not much relevance in that environment.

Additionally, Zuse was colaborating and supported from the Nazi-Regime, even though he himself was not a Nazi, nor did he directly supported their crimes. But this stain dimished education about his work for a long time.

Re: The long lost manual for the Zuse Z4 has been found

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't SUSE Linux named after Konrad Zuse?

As far as I know it's just an abbreviation that, by accident, is close to "Zuse", but has nothing to do with it (someone might want to correct me here if I'm wrong) It was developed by Germans, so SuSE means: Software und System-Entwicklung (or english: Software and systems development)

I always thought that this was not really a coincidence, but a clever pun on Zuse's name.

Re: The long lost manual for the Zuse Z4 has been found

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know it's just an abbreviation that, by accident, is close to "Zuse", but has nothing to do with it (someone might want to correct me here if I'm wrong) It was developed by Germans, so SuSE means: Software und System-Entwicklung (or english: Software and systems development)

I always thought that this was not really a coincidence, but a clever pun on Zuse's name.

Knowing Germany and the German love for any kind of wordplay and puns, you're probably correct.

Re: The long lost manual for the Zuse Z4 has been found

#30
I just recently learned just how underappreciated Zuse is. Besides the Z3 and Z4 being hugely modern machines while _also_ being the first programmable computers (load/store architecture, fixed length instructions, multiple stage execution with overlapping stages, 32-bit float [which he independently invented, but was previously discovered, but not implemented, once in 1914], branch delay slots), he suggested the structure for an optimizing compiler for numerical code as well as trying to patent super-scalar execution -- in the 1930s; the patent was eventually rejected as being "obvious" - in the 60s, years before the invention of Tomasulo's algorithm.
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