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French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

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Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#21

Post by car »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #17
markdown wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only solution is to essentially force fathers to stop working as well during this time That isn't the only solution, but it's one that could work and would make the world a better place.

Why would it possibly make the world a better place if fathers were forced to not work?! Forcing someone to stop working would likely piss a lot of people off, and would generally hurt the companies these fathers work for.

Why would it possibly make the world a better place if fathers were forced to not work?!

Because they would be able to bond with their children during paternity leave, which is a huge positive for father and child.

Forcing someone to stop working would likely piss a lot of people off, and would generally hurt the companies these fathers work for.

So it’s better to hurt children then ‘companies’?

Edit: I agree that fathers should not literally be forced to take leave. That would be dictatorial. The grandparent poster used the term essentially forced, which implies strongly encouraging both parents to take the offered leave. For example, if they would still receive most of their salary during this time, and their position were protected.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#23

Post by renewiltord »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #17
markdown wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only solution is to essentially force fathers to stop working as well during this time That isn't the only solution, but it's one that could work and would make the world a better place.

Why would it possibly make the world a better place if fathers were forced to not work?! Forcing someone to stop working would likely piss a lot of people off, and would generally hurt the companies these fathers work for.

It's a worldview that's pretty common. You equalize inherent advantages by denying everyone them when you cannot add them to some people. For instance, you cannot operate a store of a certain size without accommodating disabled people. i.e. even non-disabled people are denied the ability to shop there.

Another example (that is very different) is where UC Berkeley was forced to pull course videos it had put up because it didn't have a disabled-accessible version of them. The videos presented an advantage to normative people.

The world-view does not admit Pareto-optimal changes since benefit to some slice of humanity that is chosen based on immutable (or socially-considered inherent - like religion) characteristics is implicitly assumed to push everyone else back unless the benefit accrues to them as well.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#24

Post by jariel »

car wrote: post #21
bluedevil2k wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it possibly make the world a better place if fathers were forced to not work?! Forcing someone to stop working would likely piss a lot of people off, and would generally hurt the companies these fathers work for.

Why would it possibly make the world a better place if fathers were forced to not work?! Because they would be able to bond with their children during paternity leave, which is a huge positive for father and child. Forcing someone to stop working would likely piss a lot of people off, and would generally hurt the companies these fathers work for. So it’s better to hurt children then ‘companies’? Edit: I agree that fa…

"So it’s better to hurt children then ‘companies’?"

It's your subjective opinion that not having 'dad's around 24/7 is going to 'hurt babies'.

In all pragmatism, there's no need for 'a second parent' to take 30 days off, and I'll bet most guys, while they wouldn't mind 'some time' - probably don't need or want 30 days.

7-14 days is reasonable for second parent.

There's no optimizations here, I think we are 'mostly past' these issues, whatever tinkering we do is academic.

Subsidized childcare is a different story though, that has major impact, for better or for worse, there's still a lot of experimentation going on there.

For example, we all pretty much agree at least on 'kindergarten' before that, it's still different from place to place.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#25

Post by buzzerbetrayed »

car wrote: post #21
bluedevil2k wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it possibly make the world a better place if fathers were forced to not work?! Forcing someone to stop working would likely piss a lot of people off, and would generally hurt the companies these fathers work for.

Why would it possibly make the world a better place if fathers were forced to not work?! Because they would be able to bond with their children during paternity leave, which is a huge positive for father and child. Forcing someone to stop working would likely piss a lot of people off, and would generally hurt the companies these fathers work for. So it’s better to hurt children then ‘companies’? Edit: I agree that fa…

The father should be able to choose when and how he bonds with his children. It isn’t for the state to decide the fathers work schedule that is best for him to raise a child. That’s government overreach. It’s one thing for the government to say you may stop working. It’s another thing entirely for them to force you to do so.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#26

Post by buzzerbetrayed »

straw11 wrote: post #7

Meanwhile in Germany people get 14months paid leave. Where neither parent can take more than 12.

Before people think that this policy is all roses, a close friend of mine is the CEO of a multi billion dollar international business. They don’t hire anyone from France because the French government makes it so difficult to fire a bad hire. Maybe you could argue that the French are better off without them, but people love working for them and they have great pay and benefits. I’m sure there are a number of companies that France and Germany miss out on due to policies like these. Companies simply can’t always pay people to not work for 6 months to a year, so they’ll go somewhere where they don’t have to.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#27

Post by markdown »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #17
markdown wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only solution is to essentially force fathers to stop working as well during this time That isn't the only solution, but it's one that could work and would make the world a better place.

Why would it possibly make the world a better place if fathers were forced to not work?! Forcing someone to stop working would likely piss a lot of people off, and would generally hurt the companies these fathers work for.

Fathers would certainly not be pissed off. They'd get to work on being a father.

> Forcing someone to stop working would likely piss a lot of people off

Which people? Most humans are going to be parents some day, and even those that aren't can see that living in a world where every child has same opportunity in terms of having both parents with them for the first few days, weeks, or months of their lives is a net positive for society.

Which father doesn't want time off to be with their children if it doesn't otherwise impact them negatively (ie. they were taken of by their fellow man)?

> and would generally hurt the companies these fathers work for.

I don't believe that to be true. A company is a group of humans. Giving those humans time off to parent makes healthier, happy humans and a healthier and more effective workforce.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#28

Post by markdown »

buzzerbetrayed wrote: post #25
car wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it possibly make the world a better place if fathers were forced to not work?! Because they would be able to bond with their children during paternity leave, which is a huge positive for father and child. Forcing someone to stop working would likely piss a lot of people off, and would generally hurt the companies these fathers work for. So it’s better to hurt children then ‘companies’? Edit: I agree that fa…

The father should be able to choose when and how he bonds with his children. It isn’t for the state to decide the fathers work schedule that is best for him to raise a child. That’s government overreach. It’s one thing for the government to say you may stop working. It’s another thing entirely for them to force you to do so.

Every worker deserves the same opportunity to spend time with their children.

The government wouldn't be forcing any father to do anything. The government would be forcing companies to provide all workers the privilege of time off for parenting. A father who didn't want to bond with his children could use the time off to go fishing, take up woodworking, watch youtube videos, or work on a side-business.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#29

Post by souprock »

car wrote: post #22

Compare this to 480 days of shared and paid parental leave in Sweden at 80% salary. The fathers are looked at negatively if the don’t take some of this time. https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-maternity-leave-pater...

That is enough time to have another kid. I have 12 so far. If I lived in Sweden, I wouldn't have to work. I could keep it going for decades.

It's odd that Swedes aren't taking full advantage of the situation.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#30

Post by klipt »

souprock wrote: post #29
car wrote: post #22

Compare this to 480 days of shared and paid parental leave in Sweden at 80% salary. The fathers are looked at negatively if the don’t take some of this time. https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-maternity-leave-pater...

That is enough time to have another kid. I have 12 so far. If I lived in Sweden, I wouldn't have to work. I could keep it going for decades. It's odd that Swedes aren't taking full advantage of the situation.

Probably not many houses in Sweden can fit 12 kids?
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