Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart • Hacker News Board

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#61

Post by the8472 » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 1:01 AM UTC

rbecker wrote: post #60

the8472 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Skimming the paper, the researchers already propose their own interpretation of possible causes, but one thing I couldn't find is whether they controlled for familiarity with mirrors. A full-height mirror (within reach of small children) might simply be more common in western households. Edit, nevermind, there's a whole paragraph on that towards the end: > It may be important to note the general use of mirrors in eac…

Thinking about it, the idea that familiarity with mirrors would affect the results really throws into question that what the test measures is "self-awareness". It would imply that self-awareness can be increased by exposure to mirrors...

It is a proxy-measure, not what we're actually trying to measure. So having some factors to control for wouldn't be particularly unexpected.

It does not necessarily mean that familiarity with mirrors would cause/improve self-awareness, it could just mean that the test subject would have to learn how to use it or associate the visual stimulus with the concept of self. On the other hand it doesn't exclude the possibility that a mirror can be helpful in learning something related to the self.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#62

Post by bausano_michael » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 1:29 AM UTC

I wonder how the properties that Jeff Hawkings derived from neocortex (and partially hippocampus) in his work "On Intelligence" hold against the structure in question.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#63

Post by sliken » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 1:45 AM UTC

root_axis wrote: post #24

exo-pla-net wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an assumption. Self awareness has been scientifically tested in many species, most prominently by using the mirror test: testing if an animal can recognize itself in a mirror by observing if its behavior changes after surreptitiously placing onto its body a mark, which the animal can only see through the mirror. One can argue about the merits of the mirror test, but it's inaccurate to say that scientists are…

The mirror-test is not even close to exhaustive with respect to conclusions about self-awareness. It is certainly conceivable that a self-aware creature could simply be incapable of understanding a mirror or that they might be otherwise indifferent to what they see in it. For example, dogs fail the mirror test, but they are obviously self-aware creatures.

We had a mirror that our dog walked by every day, one day because of a surgery she was wearing a t-shirt to help prevent her from bothering the surgery site. First time she walked by the mirror she startled, realized she was wearing a t-shirt, and walked off.

Similarly when she walked by and we wave she immediately snaps her hear around to look at us.

Certainly seems like she understands mirrors and never treated a dog in the mirror as anything but herself.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#64

Post by ASalazarMX » Sat, Oct 03, 2020, 10:18 PM UTC

liability wrote: post #40

root_axis wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mirror-test is not even close to exhaustive with respect to conclusions about self-awareness. It is certainly conceivable that a self-aware creature could simply be incapable of understanding a mirror or that they might be otherwise indifferent to what they see in it. For example, dogs fail the mirror test, but they are obviously self-aware creatures.

Cats supposedly fail the mirror test, but I think they're just disinterested. There are a lot of videos of cats being shown live video of themselves and their owners, with the owner's face modified to look like a cat. In many of these the startled cat immediately turns around to look at their owner, seemingly indicating an awareness that the video they were being shown contained themselves and that the weird cat-like…

Very late comment, but I find this truly amazing. Yes, some cats are too dumb to fully grasp what's happening, but they do give the human a look of concern. Their reactions could be manipulated, but I find interesting how dogs look forth and back, while most cats remain fixated in the real human. Not very rigorous, but very cool anyway.

I've always thought a good mirror test shouldn't be just a mark, but something that looks like a venomous insect, to stimulate the subject to look for it.