Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble) • Hacker News Board

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#21

Post by crikli » Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 9:27 PM UTC

georgieporgie wrote: post #4

I have a sneaking suspicion that people overestimate their own intelligence and the rigor of their education. I'm skeptical that education has truly gotten worse, and suspect that people like this lady have forgotten how dumb they used to be.

That's symptomatic of being a fresh college grad (which this gal is...she's only four years out of school). You're still under the influence of being told you're smart because you got an A in whatever class.

Take somebody like me, who's been out of school for 15 years. I know how dumb I am; it's a measured quantity and unfortunately has an observable and accelerating rate of growth.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#22

Post by tokenadult » Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 9:33 PM UTC

hugh3 wrote: post #2

What is it about this subject that encourages such hyperbole and overgeneralization? For what it's worth, I looked it up (thanks linkedin) and the author of this piece spent four years at some place called Linfield College in McMinville, Oregon, getting a BA in History, Philosophy, French and German. It's possible that her personal experiences may not generalize.

SAT and ACT score interquartile ranges for Linfield College, according to Common Data Set reporting:

http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.j...

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#23

Post by cparedes » Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 9:34 PM UTC

Tycho wrote: post #13

I was thinking about this today. I remember I used to think 'well, if you do a degree, at least you'll be an expert in something , even if you can't find a good job with it.' When I think of it now, the notion is almost laughable. University students don't become experts in anything. For a non-technical subject, the knowledge gained isn't really going to beat a normal member of the public with an interest in the subj…

> University students don't become experts in anything.

You're absolutely right. A bachelor's degree is supposed to be a mark of well roundedness, not specialization.

> English literature students, for example, just leave with some long essays under their belts, they don't graduate as well-read authorities on different epochs of literature.

They're not supposed to be authorities - if they wanted to dedicate time to become authorities, it's well understood that you'll have to specialize in English lit, likely in some kind of subfield, which is what a masters/PhD is for.

> As in, if a member of the public needed any of those skills/knowledge to do their job, they could acquire them privately without much difficulty.

That doesn't necessarily mean that University education is all for naught. University education purports to teach us how to be better thinkers, not necessarily produce people who are skilled in one kind of thing.

The latter definition that I gave above is what the article is trying to defend.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#24

Post by WalterBright » Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 9:35 PM UTC

Tycho wrote: post #13

I was thinking about this today. I remember I used to think 'well, if you do a degree, at least you'll be an expert in something , even if you can't find a good job with it.' When I think of it now, the notion is almost laughable. University students don't become experts in anything. For a non-technical subject, the knowledge gained isn't really going to beat a normal member of the public with an interest in the subj…

I've seen very, very few people able to learn calculus outside of a school system. Most will just go to elaborate lengths to avoid using calculus and justify why they don't need to learn it.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#25

Post by shii » Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 9:36 PM UTC

These kinds of posts always pop up in a row, like a volley of arrows. Bemoaning education as failing students, falling in value, rising in cost, etc etc etc.

What actual concrete alternatives are there for alarmed students (such as myself) that read these types of posts, jump through all the hoops, and still face a massive bill from Podunk U to get a BS or BA?

Most of you all here have already gone through the rites and work at cushy tech or office jobs, and a few rebels with their own startups.

What do you say to an incoming college freshman who isn't sure if he sees the light at the end of the tunnel or a $40K+ train barreling at him?

It's nice to say work hard, network, go to a cheap state school, go to a 2 year community college first then transfer, etc...but this all seems to point a really broken system with little to no solutions in sight for those actively under the guillotine of crushing debt.

Instead of pontificating, does anyone have actionable tips or advice?

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#26

Post by joshhart » Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 9:38 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #22

hugh3 wrote: post #2

What is it about this subject that encourages such hyperbole and overgeneralization? For what it's worth, I looked it up (thanks linkedin) and the author of this piece spent four years at some place called Linfield College in McMinville, Oregon, getting a BA in History, Philosophy, French and German. It's possible that her personal experiences may not generalize.

SAT and ACT score interquartile ranges for Linfield College, according to Common Data Set reporting: http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.j...

Pitiful. 75% of the students made below a 26 on the ACT. I scored at that level in 7th grade!

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#27

Post by enjo » Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 9:39 PM UTC

cj wrote: post #15

hugh3 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right -- she skips the discussion of her personal experiences and jumps straight into the generalizations. "Our higher education system largely fails to educate... It’s nothing less than a deep institutional, cultural, societal and indeed humanitarian crisis." Really? I could have sworn that I learned a bunch of stuff about physics and pure mathematics in my four years of intensively studying physics and pure…

The vast majority of graduates do not leave college having intensively studied anything as rigorous as physics or mathematics. Most leave college with a degree that they didn't work very hard to earn. College offers the opportunity to do what you did and work your ass off, but most have no such desire.

Again, a massive generalization that you quite frankly don't have a bit of data to support.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#28

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 9:48 PM UTC

cj wrote: post #15

hugh3 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right -- she skips the discussion of her personal experiences and jumps straight into the generalizations. "Our higher education system largely fails to educate... It’s nothing less than a deep institutional, cultural, societal and indeed humanitarian crisis." Really? I could have sworn that I learned a bunch of stuff about physics and pure mathematics in my four years of intensively studying physics and pure…

The vast majority of graduates do not leave college having intensively studied anything as rigorous as physics or mathematics. Most leave college with a degree that they didn't work very hard to earn. College offers the opportunity to do what you did and work your ass off, but most have no such desire.

[deleted]

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#29

Post by cj » Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 9:49 PM UTC

enjo wrote: post #27

cj wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of graduates do not leave college having intensively studied anything as rigorous as physics or mathematics. Most leave college with a degree that they didn't work very hard to earn. College offers the opportunity to do what you did and work your ass off, but most have no such desire.

Again, a massive generalization that you quite frankly don't have a bit of data to support.

I'm a college student. I make my claims based on experience.

Do you disagree with my claim? It may be a generalization, but by no means an overgeneralization.

Re: Peter Thiel Is Wrong About Higher Education (It’s Worse Than A Bubble)

#30

Post by Tycho » Mon, Apr 18, 2011, 9:54 PM UTC

cparedes wrote: post #23

Tycho wrote: post #13

I was thinking about this today. I remember I used to think 'well, if you do a degree, at least you'll be an expert in something , even if you can't find a good job with it.' When I think of it now, the notion is almost laughable. University students don't become experts in anything. For a non-technical subject, the knowledge gained isn't really going to beat a normal member of the public with an interest in the subj…

> University students don't become experts in anything. You're absolutely right. A bachelor's degree is supposed to be a mark of well roundedness, not specialization. > English literature students, for example, just leave with some long essays under their belts, they don't graduate as well-read authorities on different epochs of literature. They're not supposed to be authorities - if they wanted to dedicate time to b…

Maybe it's different where you live, but doing an Honours degree means specializing in the subject. For instance with English lit, you would typically choose 7 or 8 modules (spread over two years), each representing a different period of literature. For those classes you should read one or two books per week (but you have all summer to prepare), and write 3 essays for each module. You should also seek out criticism on the books, and for the ones you do essays or presentations on, read a lot of the related work. There will probably be a whole module on Shakespeare, so why not read all of Shakespeare? Max out. And since you're in university anyway, you might as well attend the lectures for modules you didn't choose, just to augment your knowledge. There is ample time to do all this.

That would certainly make you an expert on your subject. Not a leading academic, obviously, but someone very well informed and educated on the matter. Of course, none of that really happens. Students do the minimum number of essays required (one, instead of three). They don't bother reading the books except the really short ones and the ones they need to write or present on. They barely even attend the lectures for the modules they did choose. Basically they finish having accomplished a fraction of the learning that was supposed to take place. Really no better than the average person who reads a lot of books.