Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart • Hacker News Board

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#51

Post by stouset » Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 9:39 PM UTC

dfischer wrote: post #30

stouset wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have any better ideas, the scientific community would legitimately love to hear them. It’s not like nobody realizes that we don’t have flawless definitions for “self-aware”, “intelligent”, or even “life” . Or that the experiments we devise to test for these things come from our own experiences and bias, and might exclude creatures with novel presentations of these traits. But they’re the best we have for now.…

If it keeps hurting, it should keep being mentioned. When things that hurt are turned into silence, then things don't change that can stop hurt. I understand your point though, and I'm sorry if it came off as an attack. It's a criticism rooted in a few things. I typed up more here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24601665

Mentioning it would be helpful if this was something the relevant scientific community wasn’t already keenly aware of. “We don’t have all-encompassing definitions nor tests of self-awareness” isn’t something people have forgotten— it’s virtually the most well-known open question in the entire field!

It’s like popping into a discussion of general relativity and “helpfully” chiming in with the criticism that “But we know GR must be wrong, since it’s incompatible with quantum mechanics.”

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#52

Post by musicale » Sat, Sep 26, 2020, 11:51 PM UTC

> some researchers argue that consciousness is uniquely human,”

I'm not entirely sure what consciousness means, but dogs (and other animals) show a wide range of emotions, and monkeys are crafty troublemakers, much like humans.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#53

Post by bawana » Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 1:47 AM UTC

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #25

root_axis wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mirror-test is not even close to exhaustive with respect to conclusions about self-awareness. It is certainly conceivable that a self-aware creature could simply be incapable of understanding a mirror or that they might be otherwise indifferent to what they see in it. For example, dogs fail the mirror test, but they are obviously self-aware creatures.

> but they are obviously self-aware creatures. Is it that obvious? Mine gets scared by her own farts sometimes.

Wouldn't that be evidence of NOT being self aware? If the animal is self aware, it knows a fart is coming and where it's coming from, so it should not be surprised.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#54

Post by bawana » Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 1:53 AM UTC

exo-pla-net wrote: post #21

bigpumpkin wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's likely that social animals are almost all self aware. How can an individual animal manage social relations within its pack without a knowledge of self and of other selves?

I disagree. Ants are highly social, but few would ascribe them self awareness. They pursue social objectives using instinct. But pack animals? Maybe. We don't have an answer to how our own self awareness works, so we're largely working in the dark.

wait a minute, instinct? So hard wired behaviors are different than acquired behaviors when it comes to self awareness? Come to think of it, no one has defined self awareness so how can we begin to say who has it and who does not? Is a three year old self aware? A three year old clearly responds to other people but many would say he/she sees the world as part of him/herself.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#55

Post by eternalban » Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 2:50 AM UTC

root_axis wrote: post #33

eternalban wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extreme self-abnegation.

Are monks, philosophers, and soldiers not self-aware?

A society composed entirely of selfless monks?

(Philosophers are definitely not self-abnegating. They are on a career track. Soldier do exhibit self-sacrifice, but quite a lot are conscripted against their will, and require a bit of re-education in boot-camp.)

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#56

Post by eternalban » Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 3:01 AM UTC

klyrs wrote: post #32

eternalban wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extreme self-abnegation.

What are your thoughts on kamikaze pilots in this regard?

Humans are capable of self sacrifice for a cause. Duty, honor, love of one's homeland, spiritual convictions, etc.

These are psychological motives and forces and their factual impact on the subject person is observable.

I just recently saw Eien no Zero (aka The Eternal Zero). If that movie reflects the actual events, then the pilots were subject to serious psychological stress coming to terms with their duty to Japan.

If we can ever measure 'psychological stress' in ants, then we can observe if they experience a shift from a normal psychological state to a stressful one before "deciding" to sacrifice themselves on whatever heroic ant task awaits them.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#57

Post by read_if_gay_ » Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 7:34 AM UTC

bawana wrote: post #53

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but they are obviously self-aware creatures. Is it that obvious? Mine gets scared by her own farts sometimes.

Wouldn't that be evidence of NOT being self aware? If the animal is self aware, it knows a fart is coming and where it's coming from, so it should not be surprised.

Yes, I was providing that as a (rather weak) counterexample.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#58

Post by dfischer » Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 5:35 PM UTC

stouset wrote: post #51

dfischer wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it keeps hurting, it should keep being mentioned. When things that hurt are turned into silence, then things don't change that can stop hurt. I understand your point though, and I'm sorry if it came off as an attack. It's a criticism rooted in a few things. I typed up more here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24601665

Mentioning it would be helpful if this was something the relevant scientific community wasn’t already keenly aware of. “We don’t have all-encompassing definitions nor tests of self-awareness” isn’t something people have forgotten— it’s virtually the most well-known open question in the entire field! It’s like popping into a discussion of general relativity and “helpfully” chiming in with the criticism that “But we kn…

Fair enough - however I haven’t heard the scientific community talk much of this problem. The unfortunate side of gated communities and information.

I will be more mindful of my ranting. Thanks for sharing.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#59

Post by dfischer » Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 5:35 PM UTC

smallnamespace wrote: post #45

dfischer wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it keeps hurting, it should keep being mentioned. When things that hurt are turned into silence, then things don't change that can stop hurt. I understand your point though, and I'm sorry if it came off as an attack. It's a criticism rooted in a few things. I typed up more here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24601665

I mean, would you go around reminding your friends of their shortcomings and then reminding them how helpful your feedback is? Sometimes people are well aware of the problems and are actively trying to solve them.

I won’t remind them of my feedback but I’d never give up on telling them where they should improve.

Re: Newfound brain structure explains why some birds are so smart

#60

Post by rbecker » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 12:47 AM UTC

the8472 wrote: post #47

rbecker wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mirror test also gives widely different results in humans. Canadian children pass it at 2 years old, while Kenyans fail at 5: https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/Journal%20of%20Cross... Would you conclude from it that Kenyan children are less (or not at all) "self-aware" than Canadian ones? Or that the leap from "recognize reflection" to "self-awareness" is unjustified?

Skimming the paper, the researchers already propose their own interpretation of possible causes, but one thing I couldn't find is whether they controlled for familiarity with mirrors. A full-height mirror (within reach of small children) might simply be more common in western households. Edit, nevermind, there's a whole paragraph on that towards the end: > It may be important to note the general use of mirrors in eac…

Thinking about it, the idea that familiarity with mirrors would affect the results really throws into question that what the test measures is "self-awareness". It would imply that self-awareness can be increased by exposure to mirrors...