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People expect technology to suck because it sucks

tonsky.me

381–390 of 437 posts

Re: People expect technology to suck because it sucks

#381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lose all the data you typed into a web form if you accidentally backspace while not in a text field, because it navigates off the page Nowadays, I would consider this a problem with the browser. How often does one navigate backwards with the backspace key? Recently, I had some doubts over whether or not I should clobber the native browser behaviour for "ctrl-s", but then I realized that nobody anywhere EVER saves a…

Edge, or at least the Chromium version of it, has changed the navigate back key to be ALT+Left Arrow instead of the backspace key. It was annoying at first because I have over two decades of muscle memory for hitting backspace to go back. After a couple of days I got used to it and now am happy I can backspace without accidentally navigating away because focus wasn't where I thought it was.

Alt+Left/Right navigating through history has been in IE since at least IE4. I don't recall if it worked before then, and trying to look up ~25 year old documentation is somewhat difficult (especially since it would have shipped in a WinHelp file with the software instead).

Re: People expect technology to suck because it sucks

#383
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect this is a reversal of cause and effect. Did consumers demand subscription services? Or did vendors (led by Adobe) decide to change to subscriptions to get uniform cash flow? At agencies I have worked at all creatives I worked with would prefer to spend $200-400 and have a permanent software license. Perhaps this isn't a representative group.

I'm not saying consumers demanded subscriptions. vendors push them because it's a saner way of managing revenue for products that require maintenance post-sale anyway. that said, I think consumers would prefer subscriptions if they understood how it aligned incentives. one way or another, a product will stop receiving support when the money stops flowing in. with a permanent license, it ends when people stop buying l…

> that said, I think consumers would prefer subscriptions if they understood how it aligned incentives.

Actually, I think subscriptions misaligns incentives. With subscriptions, it becomes important for the vendors to keep releasing updates (so that the customers feel like they're getting value out of the subscription), which means having bug-free software is a terrible idea. You'd need to either release intentionally buggy software (so you can ship a follow-up version to fix it) or go on a feature treadmill (in which case trying to stabilize has rapidly diminishing returns and high opportunity cost).

As a consumer, software that was developed knowing it would never be fixed and has to be perfect the first try is much better (even if it still has bugs). Mario64 had bugs (e.g. backwards jump going really fast); but the bugs weren't really noticeable in normal gameplay because they couldn't just ship an update most of the size of the whole game before you start to play.

Re: People expect technology to suck because it sucks

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to the 346 people who perished because of negligent and (in my opinion, malicious in terms of regulatory deception) undocumented, uncommunicated programming of the speed trim system of the 737 MAX. Or the folks who perished because of badly programmed software interlocks on the THERAC-25 radiotherapy machine. Just knowing or figuring out to flip that switch may be an insurmountable barrier depending on the…

I agree with the sentiment of the post and the replies. Yet your examples hint at something more. Those massive failures are by people not by tech. Mismanagement and incompetence and systems designed to obfuscate accountability. Which happens aplenty in non tech fields.

In wiring a house, there is a built in assumption that something could go wrong and disrupt the wiring. That's why we had fuses, and now circuit breakers, grounding, ground fault interrupters, metal conduit, etc. All of these serve to limit the side effects of faults.

When you turn on a switch... it's part of a circuit which is current limited, and in fact there are several limits on that current, all the way back to the source... each designed to protect a link in the chain. Each of those breakers limits the capability to source current further downstream.

When you run a task in any modern OS, it runs with the full privileges of the user id with which it was launched. This is like hooking a generating station directly up to your floor lamp in the living room with no breakers. If the process has a fault, there is nothing the Operating System will do to prevent it from being used to subvert other parts of the system, there is no limit to what it can do.

There are systems that require you to specify how many resources a given task is to be allowed to access. It turns out that such systems can be just as user friendly as the ones we're used to, but they do require things be re-written because the ground assumptions in the security model are different.

Capability Based Security (also known as "Multi-Level Security) was born out of a need to have both Sensitive and Secret information shared on a computer that scheduled Air Traffic during the Vietnam Conflict. (If I remember the situation correctly) The flights themselves were sensitive, and the locations of the enemy radar were top secret (because people risked their lives spying to find them).

It was extremely important that information could not leak, and solutions were found, and work!

About 10 years ago, when I learned about this, and considered the scope of work required to make it available in general purpose Operating Systems, I estimated it would take 15 years until the need for Capability Based Security would be realized, and another 5 more or so until it was ready. I think we're on track.... 2025 people will start adopting it, and 2030 it will be the defacto way things are done.

Genode is a long standing project to bring this new type of security to the masses... I'm still waiting until the point I get to play with it... and have been for a while.

Things will get better... these types of tools, along with "information hiding", getting rid of raw pointers and other clever but dangerous tricks will help as well.

[Edit: Re-arranged to clarify, and improve flow]

Re: People expect technology to suck because it sucks

#385
post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edge, or at least the Chromium version of it, has changed the navigate back key to be ALT+Left Arrow instead of the backspace key. It was annoying at first because I have over two decades of muscle memory for hitting backspace to go back. After a couple of days I got used to it and now am happy I can backspace without accidentally navigating away because focus wasn't where I thought it was.

Alt+Left/Right navigating through history has been in IE since at least IE4. I don't recall if it worked before then, and trying to look up ~25 year old documentation is somewhat difficult (especially since it would have shipped in a WinHelp file with the software instead).

Since backspace worked in every IE version up until Edge/Chromium, I never knew the ALT+arrows combinations worked. It wasn't until backspace stopped working that I did a search to find what was going on and saw the ALT key combos. So they may have been there all along but I never had reason to find out about them until recently.

Re: People expect technology to suck because it sucks

#386
post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When is the last time leaving your keys in the car caused your house to suddenly slide 10 foot southwest? When is the last time you flipped a light switch, and suddenly your pool disappeared? Have you ever had French doors appear in your dining room because of a "Windows Update" on Wednesday morning? Have you ever had to wait for half an hour for your house to boot later on that same Wednesday? When is the last time…

I don’t know where you got these examples, but they were fantastic.

Just trying to make analogies people can understand over the years.

The current state of computer security.... is like building a fort, out of cases of C-4 explosive.

How so? Almost every program has bugs, many of which can be exploited remotely. It is effectively impossible NOT to have a zero-day exploitable hole in any given computer. Thus, every single computer can be exploited... and then used to attack more computers.... in a chain reaction.... like a fort built out of C-4.

Re: People expect technology to suck because it sucks

#387
post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If anything users are becoming too egocentric, expecting the world to conform to their comfort, with a dash of construal level fallacy, underestimating from a mile away how easy it would be to write bug free programs with perfect designs in a real world, by real people, with real budgets etc. Selection bias. You only hear from users who want new features. You rarely hear from users who don't want new features and j…

I was talking about the “users who don't want new features and just want software to stop being buggy and acting like a goddamn haunted house.” so the selection bias is yours. Most bugs are just annoying, consequences are not catastrophic if your favorite tuner app forgets your settings, your word processor messes up the formatting, your pdf reader crashes. You can recover with some frustration and wasted time. The p…

> Most bugs are just annoying, consequences are not catastrophic if your favorite tuner app forgets your settings, your word processor messes up the formatting, your pdf reader crashes.

So what? Users get upset when your crap doesn't work. Stop being flippant and pushing back. Pushing back is not your (our) job. Complaining how hard your job is not your job. Griping and moaning about irate users is also not your job. Delivering a product that does what is says it will do on the tin is actually your job. Believe it or not, you produce something people depend on!

Imagine your power steering goes out on left hand turns going north downhill. You take it into the mechanic and all you get is "That's just annoying, not catastrophic. You can recover with just some wasted time. It's exponentially more difficult to make the implementation actually bug free!"

Users quite rightly spot bullshit excuses. And we have none. Save the settings, fix the formatting, stop the crashing.

Re: People expect technology to suck because it sucks

#388
post #20

As soon as I clicked on this, I recognized the author's signature yellow background and font from their previous post about buying a new monitor (which I also found at the top of HN) https://tonsky.me/blog/monitors/ I enjoyed both posts. Great titles, well written, serious but witty. Props to the author; I'll be subscribing for more.

I had missed that one, thanks for pointing it out.

Re: People expect technology to suck because it sucks

#389
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> never had a problem with a refrigerator These turn of phrases make me wonder what we are really expecting from software. I can’t imagine you never slapped the door of your fridge and it didn’t properly close. You gave it a nudge when you realized it, and it was fine, but it must have happened. And your whole food supply would be rotten if you didn’t notice in time. Or do we monitor energy consumption close enough t…

> I can’t imagine you never slapped the door of your fridge and it didn’t properly close. You gave it a nudge when you realized it, and it was fine, but it must have happened. And your whole food supply would be rotten if you didn’t notice in time. But if the fridge was software it would randomly turn off and ruin all your food. The light would sometimes stay on, except when you open the door. It would require you to…

A lot of these look like pricing and marketing issues to me.

Fridges have been with us long enough in a ‘pay everything upfront’ setting that we‘d battle to the bitter end if we had to do micro-payments or aggressive planned obsolescence.

To your point, I lived in long stay apartments where you put coins to have the fridge and air conditioning work because they didn’t bother having pay as you leave metered use. That’s super rare (I hope ? I’d expect the same in some predatory situations towards low income people), but it’s to say that alternative exists.

Otherwise fridges randomly turning off is just a matter of time and/or build quality. Sooner or later it happens (or it stops turning on, which is arguably better, but you wouldn’t say it’s great)

Re: People expect technology to suck because it sucks

#390
post #151
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t reality suck the same ? My gas car stinks, destroys the planet, needs yearly maintenance, crashes in everything the second I stop paying attention. My house decays days after day. Floors need constant cleaning, wall have holes from small impacts, paint contains inedible fragments and disperse nocive gas. Bees are building nests on my balcony and it’s definitely not what it was built for, nor where they should…

Houses, cars, etc are far more reliable and well designed than software. Think about all the extreme conditions cars continue to function in. How many people don't even follow basic maintenance schedules? Another key difference is that in maintenance of your home, you have complete control. It's extremely easy to understand and act to improve or maintain it. When large software systems (like the IRS login) have probl…

> Houses, cars, etc are far more reliable and well designed than software

Buy software the price of a house and you’ll be right to expect the same build level.

Then even at the price of your house you’ll have fun with mold growing inside the walls issues, soil that degrades in unexpected ways after heavy rain hits the hill you’re built on; rooms were fresh and bright enough on a hot summer day when you visited, but you realize overall orientation makes way darker and gloomy in winter that you expected. And you’ll pay for that house for your next 20 years.

Cars are the same at a lower level, and you see small issues creep up as you lower your budget (or go buy a fancy vintage italian car and you’re in for the wild ride).

> Another key difference is that in maintenance of your home, you have complete control.

In the good old days people had timers on their desk to remember to restart programs before they crash. Also saving stuff, making backups etc.

Of course online services are a different beast, but it’s more akin to fighting bureaucracy, which I see as a our society’s software in a way, with the shitty forms with not enough space for your name and other niceties.

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