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You're enlightened – now what?

whatiscalledthinking.substack.com

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Re: You're enlightened – now what?

#141

Post by coldtea »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #91
Liquix wrote: post #11

Zen saying: "Before enlightenment chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment chop wood, carry water" . Some more from Ram Dass: “Just because you are seeing divine light, experiencing waves of bliss, or conversing with Gods and Goddesses is no reason to not know your zip code.” "If you see yourself as God and then you come back from this state and somebody says, "Hey, Sam, empty the garbage!" it catches you back int…

It seems to easy to reach enlightenment when you are living in a monastery with a bunch of dudes and no responsibilities but to "chop wood, carry water." But an enlightenment philosophy that can help a father of 3 with a hard marriage and a fulltime job or two...? Hmm, maybe the enlightment philosophy project will take a few thousand more years...

>It seems to easy to reach enlightenment when you are living in a monastery with a bunch of dudes and no responsibilities but to "chop wood, carry water."

Do you find it easy to confine yourself to a monastery with a bunch of dudes and no responsibilities but to "chop wood, carry water"?

If so, why don't you take this "easy" path?

Re: You're enlightened – now what?

#143

Post by earthboundkid »

Barrin92 wrote: post #130

Very scattered post. I guess the confusion about enlightenment these days is grounded in the conflict between the actual traditional concept and the way spiritual practises have been sold as a sort of productivity booster pack for knowledge workers. In many religious traditions enlightenment is nothing less than the annihilation of the self or something of the sort. It's a proper recognition or awareness of one's own…

Buddhism is politically quietist traditionally, but Abrahamic religions are politically activist, so Western reception of Buddhism requires transforming it into “engaged” Buddhism. It’s hard for someone raised in the West to look at Nazis and just shrug and say that they can only kill the body but not the soul, but that is more or less what Buddhists before 1800 would say.

Re: You're enlightened – now what?

#144

Post by krapp »

earthboundkid wrote: post #143
Barrin92 wrote: post #130

Very scattered post. I guess the confusion about enlightenment these days is grounded in the conflict between the actual traditional concept and the way spiritual practises have been sold as a sort of productivity booster pack for knowledge workers. In many religious traditions enlightenment is nothing less than the annihilation of the self or something of the sort. It's a proper recognition or awareness of one's own…

Buddhism is politically quietist traditionally, but Abrahamic religions are politically activist, so Western reception of Buddhism requires transforming it into “engaged” Buddhism. It’s hard for someone raised in the West to look at Nazis and just shrug and say that they can only kill the body but not the soul, but that is more or less what Buddhists before 1800 would say.

>Buddhism is politically quietist traditionally,

I am not a scholar but what little I know of East Asian history strongly suggests otherwise, particularly in Japan, where even today one of the biggest and most active political parties (Komeito) is just the political wing of a Buddhist sect (Soka Gakkai.) Any religion which is adopted by the elite class becomes politically active. Buddhism is no different that Christianity, Judaism or Islam in this regard.

Re: You're enlightened – now what?

#145

Post by bane »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #91
Liquix wrote: post #11

Zen saying: "Before enlightenment chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment chop wood, carry water" . Some more from Ram Dass: “Just because you are seeing divine light, experiencing waves of bliss, or conversing with Gods and Goddesses is no reason to not know your zip code.” "If you see yourself as God and then you come back from this state and somebody says, "Hey, Sam, empty the garbage!" it catches you back int…

It seems to easy to reach enlightenment when you are living in a monastery with a bunch of dudes and no responsibilities but to "chop wood, carry water." But an enlightenment philosophy that can help a father of 3 with a hard marriage and a fulltime job or two...? Hmm, maybe the enlightment philosophy project will take a few thousand more years...

The very underrated movie "Redbelt" kind of addresses it. It's not about enlightenment, but the challenges of following a warrior's ethos in a modern world. It includes job, money, friendship, legal, and marriage challenges and the main character struggles to stay true to himself and his code throughout.

The ending scene is magnificent.

Re: You're enlightened – now what?

#146

Post by mannykannot »

theon144 wrote: post #5

I honestly don't get the point of the article. Is it supposed to be a jab at the modern mindfulness wave? Or is it actually speaking of "enlightenment" as it's understood in most spiritual practices, in which case none of the questions even make sense?

Do you have any reason to not see it in the light of your first alternative reading? I would not necessarily have put it that way myself, but on seeing you do so, it resonated.

Re: You're enlightened – now what?

#147

Post by FalconSensei »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #91
Liquix wrote: post #11

Zen saying: "Before enlightenment chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment chop wood, carry water" . Some more from Ram Dass: “Just because you are seeing divine light, experiencing waves of bliss, or conversing with Gods and Goddesses is no reason to not know your zip code.” "If you see yourself as God and then you come back from this state and somebody says, "Hey, Sam, empty the garbage!" it catches you back int…

It seems to easy to reach enlightenment when you are living in a monastery with a bunch of dudes and no responsibilities but to "chop wood, carry water." But an enlightenment philosophy that can help a father of 3 with a hard marriage and a fulltime job or two...? Hmm, maybe the enlightment philosophy project will take a few thousand more years...

I agree with you, in parts, but: actual philosophy and meditation is not meant for you to be more productive at your job, or not need sleep to be able to work extra hours, or anything like that.

But it would help you worry less about things that can't be helped, and focus on this that can. It would help lessen the mental strain that we have for not being able to do more, or help us deal with the marriage problems in a way that it affects you less during your work hours.

You still have to work, still have sickness, marriage problems. But being better at separating those things, and suffering less because of the problems, is really beneficial

Re: You're enlightened – now what?

#148

Post by zzzeek »

Liquix wrote: post #11

Zen saying: "Before enlightenment chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment chop wood, carry water" . Some more from Ram Dass: “Just because you are seeing divine light, experiencing waves of bliss, or conversing with Gods and Goddesses is no reason to not know your zip code.” "If you see yourself as God and then you come back from this state and somebody says, "Hey, Sam, empty the garbage!" it catches you back int…

yup, basically if this is you:

> But a question nags at you: why can’t the world already know what you know? They’d be so much better off. So much happier.

we can't define "enlightenment" but we can probably name endless things that would not be a central feature of enlightenment. That above would be pretty high on the list.

Re: You're enlightened – now what?

#149

Post by earthboundkid »

krapp wrote: post #144
earthboundkid wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buddhism is politically quietist traditionally, but Abrahamic religions are politically activist, so Western reception of Buddhism requires transforming it into “engaged” Buddhism. It’s hard for someone raised in the West to look at Nazis and just shrug and say that they can only kill the body but not the soul, but that is more or less what Buddhists before 1800 would say.

>Buddhism is politically quietist traditionally, I am not a scholar but what little I know of East Asian history strongly suggests otherwise, particularly in Japan, where even today one of the biggest and most active political parties (Komeito) is just the political wing of a Buddhist sect (Soka Gakkai.) Any religion which is adopted by the elite class becomes politically active. Buddhism is no different that Christi…

Komeito is post-war, so doesn’t constitute a counter-example.

Buddhists pretty much had the opinion that a king who supports the sangha is a dharma king, whatever other sins he’s committing. The important thing is that the king pays the monastery for his legitimation. Beyond that, they’re not greedy. The king is probably going to hell for 10 million years for all the mayhem he’s causing. No need to be rude about it.

Re: You're enlightened – now what?

#150

Post by king_panic »

colanderman wrote: post #138
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first quote reminded me of this from Bruce Lee: > Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick. Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick.

Nice, I like that. It meshes with my own experience learning and internalizing various skills. If I'm interpreting it correctly, upon learning an art, each aspect of that art becomes a wide topic unto itself, to be picked apart and studied in detail. But in mastering an art, those lessons learned are internalized, and each aspect seen again as only its whole self.

You see with your mind, then you see with your eyes
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