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Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primarily human attribute

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Re: Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primarily human attribute

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine what could happen if you scaled up the space efficient crow brain to human size.

It's really sort of weird that a mammal ended up becoming Earth's first technological species. Birds all have the good neuron scaling that in mammals mostly only primates have. They have high energy intensity lifestyles where the extra energy cost of a big brain isn't a insuperable obstacle as with our pursuit hunter ancestors but not most other mammal lifestyles. Also they've got unidirectional rather than tidal lun…

Can you expand more on the significance of the lung style?

Re: Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primarily human attribute

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. You can make friends with crows, and they will remember you for a very long time. If you get shiny things, then you're the crow's meow. Bones maybe just "meh." https://youtu.be/dg3ApNJct6Q https://youtu.be/0fiAoqwsc9g https://youtu.be/HWXe7Js6GnI https://youtu.be/VOmRNeYZVfE Furthermore, crows can be sneaky. A murder of them hanging out behind my mechanic's goaded the dork of the group into stealing a bag sunflo…

There is a saying here in Pakistan (India too perhaps) that when crows 'crow', some guests come. I think it originated from the observation that they started crowing whenever they saw some new person coming.

I can attest that this saying is common in South India (Andhra Pradesh specifically). It doesn't necessarily the guests will arrive immediately after - it can be sometime during that day.

Re: Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primarily human attribute

#343

Hopefully someone in the field will read this and be able to answer my question: I've spent a lot of time googling research about animal intelligence, and I now know a bunch of things intelligent animals can do, but I have no idea where their limits are, what they can't do. Everything published uses such... nonflexible tasks. If we're trying to measure general intelligence, why isn't anybody trying to teach corvids,…

Here is a video of pigeons playing "sokoban", "talking" and playing "ping pong": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKSvu3mj-14&feature=youtu.be The main problem mentioned in the video is that pigeons don't come with a repertoire that allows them to do those tasks naturally. So, the researchers have to teach them each of the behaviors independently. The pigeons then manage to put the behaviors together, in what is argua…

I'll refer to what I assume you called the sokoban example, the "banana test" from part 2, which is the most relevant to our discussion. In it, a pigeon who has been trained that sometimes pushing stuff around is rewarded with food and sometimes climbing stuff is rewarded with food manages to solve a puzzle where it must push a box to below a banana and then climb the box to reach the banana.

First of all, thanks, that's a really cool video and exactly the kind of research I'm looking for.

However, I don't think it goes far enough to actually measure what I'm interested in. In the comments of this similar video [1] about a crow who has been trained to do each of A, B, C, D separately to get food doing A+B+C+D to get food, a comment captures what's wrong with it perfectly by saying:

> 2:20 The "use everything on everything" stage of playing a point-and-click adventure game.

Sure, we know birds can figure out that if step 1 is sometimes good and step 2 is sometimes good, then step 1 and then step 2 might be good. But that's not at all enough to solve, say, level 2 in [2], a video of a Sokoban game. If I trained a toddler to solve puzzles like level 1 (so it knows how to walk and it knows how to push crates), if could spend weeks moving and pushing crates around and not reach a solution. The repertoire of behaviors that allows them to play the game is just a foundation for a whole world of logic and planning that needs to be mastered to actually solve nontrivial Sokoban levels. Had I seen a crow solve level 3, I'd believe it is no less intelligent than some of my friends, and that if we put our minds to it, we could find a way to communicate, trade, and help our new corvid friends build a civilization not less sophisticated than our own. Based on that video, I see no reason to believe that about pigeons (yet).

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbSu2PXOTOc [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yix2AVVUwe0

Re: Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primarily human attribute

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. You can make friends with crows, and they will remember you for a very long time. If you get shiny things, then you're the crow's meow. Bones maybe just "meh." https://youtu.be/dg3ApNJct6Q https://youtu.be/0fiAoqwsc9g https://youtu.be/HWXe7Js6GnI https://youtu.be/VOmRNeYZVfE Furthermore, crows can be sneaky. A murder of them hanging out behind my mechanic's goaded the dork of the group into stealing a bag sunflo…

There is a saying here in Pakistan (India too perhaps) that when crows 'crow', some guests come. I think it originated from the observation that they started crowing whenever they saw some new person coming.

Where I grew up (south Gujarat, IN) every year someday in September, families prepare multiple plates of good food and place them out on terraces for the crows to eat. They believe the crows eating this food to be recently deceased ancestors/family. The number of plates placed usually correspond to the number of deaths the family's witnessed in living memory.

Re: Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primarily human attribute

#345
post #55

If Humans somehow make themselves extinct, I bet on crows being the species to take over.

I'll place my bet on cephalopods. Wonder how the two civilizations would interact after discovering each other. And if we don't go extinct, perhaps one day we'll uplift both species.

They'd have to overcome both very short lifespans and adversarial behavior.

Re: Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primarily human attribute

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, they'd be right that my intelligence is not as well distributed as theirs. But that's a specific feature of their intelligence, that's not general intelligence. If an octopus can beat me at Sokoban, I don't care whether it thinks with its brain or its arms, I would like to hire it as a programmer for my startup. If an octopus tries its best to play Sokoban, beats the tutorial but can't figure out the levels w…

I feel like you are hyper focused on the idea of general intelligence which is why you are not finding what you want. Most people studying intelligence don't buy into a general intelligence idea. It certainly isn't present in most people who perform transfer of knowledge tasks.

I've never met a healthy adult human being for whom I would bet against their ability to solve level 2 of this [1] given some time and motivation. Have you?

(I'm referring to the last sentence. I can accept that many animal intelligence researchers don't buy into the idea of a general intelligence)

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yix2AVVUwe0

Re: Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primarily human attribute

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes Corvids truly fascinating, is that their offspring will be taught to recognize them too.

Isn't it fascinating that even a different species must have some expression for "stay away from that Karen"?

I'll charitably assume that you're missing a comma and the crow-kid is called Karen.

And if you aren't, I'll ask you to take your mysogynist slurs elsewhere.

Re: Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primarily human attribute

#348
post #260

Out here, the ravens are our neighborhood watch. They have certain blocks that they patrol, always one spotter (from a tree or building), and one on the wing or walking about. Ravens are about the size as a 4 year old human. They love McDonald's french fries, alas: they will sort through the refuse bins, and aren't too careful about putting the trash back. I often wonder about encouraging them to pick up litter and r…

A 4-year-old human is around 20kg and a meter tall. This seems very large for a bird.

A bird of the same volume or height would naturally be much lighter, being mostly feathers and having hollow bones. It does seem like a bit of hyperbole, though.

Re: Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primarily human attribute

#349
post #212

I've wondered about the difference in behavior of crows when they encounter humans at different kinds of places. I put peanuts out on the rail of my deck for the squirrels (I've got Eastern grey squirrels and Douglas squirrels) and the Steller's jays. If I see crows around, I'll give them some too. If I'm actually outside on the deck, even far away from where the peanuts are, the crows will not come get them. They wa…

Maybe the opposite: Someone mentioned up above that crows and larger animals sometimes team up to hunt (they mentioned coyotes), the crow finding prey and the other animal killing it for both of them.

Maybe staying away is the default state, but the grocery store is a hunting ground where they're teaming up with humans in a similar way?

Re: Crows possess higher intelligence long thought a primarily human attribute

#350
post #29

I feel that the title oversells this a bit. This research demonstrates that crows know whether they saw something or not. It doesn't demonstrate that they are on a par with humans when it comes to introspection.

It's a pretty big feature, relatively speaking, to have a brain that can implement if(){} else{}, rather than simply if(){}

An ant can implement if/else.

This is something a bit more than that; they knew that they saw a light and could remember afterwards that that had happened.

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