Live data from Hacker News

How poker and a spaceship imposter game make you better at life

altdeep.substack.com

71–80 of 98 posts

Re: How poker and a spaceship imposter game make you better at life

#71

I'm not really sure why they chose Among Us as an alternative to poker. Sure, it has a little chance and unknown information, but among us is really more of a social study to see how easily people can be swayed into voting people off. In my experience if I talk confidently and get the first word in it's pretty easy to cast aside suspicion. In fact, one meta strategy is to kill someone, then report the body yourself a…

> In my experience if I talk confidently and get the first word in it's pretty easy to cast aside suspicion.

Do you usually play with friends? This is definitely not a stable strategy in the repeated Among Us game with the same players :) (although it is quite effective to start! Assuming nobody else is also using it.)

> Another strategy is to follow someone for a bit in the beginning, such that if you were the imposter you could've killed them, leading them to trust you. Then in voting sessions that person will likely vouch for you.

This is called being a “third impostor” (whenever there are two impostors in the round [0]) and it appears to be a little bit more stable, but then casts suspicion on you once you start leaving between kills, among other things. So it’s not fully stable, but some amount of randomness in your playing can also make this strategy viable. (I.e., doing the same when you’re both an impostor and a crew mate with nonzero probability.)

I almost always play the variant where we cannot know whether the person voted out was an impostor or not, so read the above with that in mind. The other variation (where voted players have their type revealed) one also has interesting meta-game strategies like “vouching,” where a player will say “if you vote red and they aren’t the Impostor, then immediately vote me.” This strategy is only exploitable as an impostor when they are close to a win, which makes it a very strong signal of truthfulness in the early game [1].

-----

[0] And is usually just called (n+1)th impostor whenever there are n impostors in a round.

[1] Impostors can exploit this in the late game, if the cooldown for emergency meetings is long-ish. For example: whenever an impostor pair is three kills away from a win, an impostor can kill (leaving two people for a win), self-report, and then vouch. Then the pair can just do a double kill and win immediately after the end of voting + cooldown.

Re: How poker and a spaceship imposter game make you better at life

#72
Now that human experience and Alpha Go have plotted out the playable variances in the first 40 moves, I still offer you this: you should play blitz chess.

Not being to find the best move leads to sub-optimal play which then offers tactical back-and-forth games. In my live games, I also try to use openings (e.g. Sicilian Najdorf, KIA) that reward sharp playmaking, inviting human error.

"Bluffing" in chess could be interpreted as "gambits": giving up material in exchange for attacking tempo/positional value. The bold bet is that despite your material disadvantage, you can still beat them before the game ends. "Deception" could be feinting a queenside push, only to position your army for a kingside endgame.

Re: How poker and a spaceship imposter game make you better at life

#73

The best lesson I learned from poker is the concept of "expected value". [1] It takes some of the grief out of undesired outcomes - because you made the right decision based on the information you had, and chance just happened to not be in your favor in this case. It affects how I make all kinds of business- and life-decisions. Chosing insurance-package on the rental car, investing in stock, trusting people etc. [1]…

> Chosing insurance-package on the rental car, FWIW Insurance is a negative expected value "asset", but it makes sense to buy it (not in this case necessarily). A one time massive negative hit to your finances could be devastating compared to periodic insurance payments. Expected value is a simplified representation of the distribution of outcomes which is really what you should be thinking about regarding risk manag…

As far as I know, it is not even possible for me to rent a car completely without insurance and thereby risk having to pay for the full value of the car. :)

So it is really about what kind of deductible you will have vs. what you pay for it.

If I save 100 EUR 10 times renting a car and I expect to have one damage costing me 1000 EUR every 10 times I rent a car - it is neutral EV.

If you can't afford the "hit" of a large deductible if an accident happes, then it would make sense to pay more here and now to reduce or eliminate that risk.

I have saved thousands of euros over the years by electing to go with the included insurance, which typically is around 1000-1500EUR deductible, if I remember correctly.

So if I crash my rental car the next three times I rent a car and have to pay 3x1000EUR deductible, I will still be in the green.

Last time I picked an upgraded insurace, it was because we were a group that rented together, and I didn't want to risk friendsships over who might have dented the car etc. :)

Re: How poker and a spaceship imposter game make you better at life

#74
post #14

I tried this question with Dota: "What does Dota teach me about working with a software development team" The only really big one I came up with is that some people are just toxic and you have to mute them and play around them as best as possible.

The one thing that always drove me to keep playing when I had more time was the sweet nectar of being part of a high-performing team. When everything clicked together and you knew that you could rely on your teammates during the ebbs and flows across lanes.

I miss those days.

Re: How poker and a spaceship imposter game make you better at life

#75
post #68
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't quite correct although that's how poker was taught in the 90s. The goal of the top players these days is to play as close as possible to optimal poker ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium ) and not worry about the individual hand their opponent might have in a given moment.

This is only true when playing with others attempting to play optimally. If you only play optimal poker it may be difficult to take advantage of sub optimal players without modifying play. A simple example is a rock paper scissors tournament. The nash equilibrium says you must always simply pick each with 1/3 chance. But if you play this you are almost gauranteed to finish in the middle of the pack. The winner is goi…

> This is only true when playing with others attempting to play optimally.

It's also true against someone who is playing an exploitative strategy.

Re: How poker and a spaceship imposter game make you better at life

#76
Maybe ten years ago I remember playing bluffing games like "Werewolf" and "Mafia" on IRC, where a bot would randomly assign you to be a wolf or resistance and you'd talk it up in the chat.

One Night Ultimate Werewolf capitalized on the "Old Spice Guy" ads and had Isaiah Amir Mustafa narrate in an app to facilitate in-person play.

Among Us is really just a continuation along this series of games -- except you actually have to go around a 2D map and complete toy tasks to accomplish a goal. If you're not into playing games, you can watch some folks on Twitch playing it to get a sense of how the dynamics work.

Re: How poker and a spaceship imposter game make you better at life

#77
post #59

The author makes a lot of assumptions and oversimplifications whilst falling for the mystique of poker as expressed in popular culture. We've all seen the movies where psychological tells ("deception") end up saving (or ruining) the day during a poker game. Unfortunately, in terms of winning strategies, this couldn't be further from how the game actually plays out today. Back when online poker exploded onto the scene…

Thanks. I was the author of the post. Are you suggesting it is harder to bluff in online poker? Or that somehow taking the game online means bluffing doesn't work as well? Here is a good post on bots, if you haven't seen it: https://int8.io/counterfactual-regret-minimization-for-poker...

Von Neumann proved that there exists an unexploitable strategy for any zero sum game, where playing that strategy gives you the best possible outcome if your opponent knows your strategy and can play perfectly against it. Poker players refer to this strategy as "Game Theory Optimal". It is not necessarily "optimal" in the sense of making the most money in real life, EG if your opponent always folds to big bets then you should bet big more often than a GTO strategy would.

Over the last 15 years or so high level poker strategy has increasingly focused on approximating GTO play, and people are moving away from any type of exploitative play, whether that's psychological tells or adjusting to weaknesses like an opponent folding too much. So a GTO player actually will bluff quite frequently, but it's due to the math indicating that it's an advantageous spot to do it, not because of anything he's observed about his opponent.

That said, there's still room to adjust to exploit an opponent, and the weaker the opponent is the more profitable it can be to deviate from "correct" play.

Re: How poker and a spaceship imposter game make you better at life

#78
post #16

It's been interesting to see how popular "Among Us" has become. (I guess the problem for me is that, ahem, it's best played with a group of friends...) It does seem to make for a good game on Twitch, since several streamers can play together or with their chats. "Among Us" seems to be displacing the previous game "Town of Salem". Maybe people like the more real-time aspects? ("Among Us" also seems to inspire more "dr…

Another one in this genre is a Garry's Mod gamemode called "Trouble in Terrorist Town", where similarly a minority of the players are traitors and the innocents need to work out who they are before they kill everyone.

Re: How poker and a spaceship imposter game make you better at life

#80
post #74
post #14

I tried this question with Dota: "What does Dota teach me about working with a software development team" The only really big one I came up with is that some people are just toxic and you have to mute them and play around them as best as possible.

The one thing that always drove me to keep playing when I had more time was the sweet nectar of being part of a high-performing team . When everything clicked together and you knew that you could rely on your teammates during the ebbs and flows across lanes. I miss those days.

Yes, I switched teams at work to be on a high-performing team. All the high performing people left the team for one reason or another. I still felt like there were interesting problems to solve, but my outlook became rather depressed for a while.

I don't know whether I should have stayed around after the high-performers left.

Post reply on HN