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Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

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Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#881
post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>While I would even argue for openness there but you are comparing a specific use platform to a general computing platform. I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make. How is iOS fundamentally different from the Xbox OS? Microsoft owns the OS and the hardware. Microsoft have several variants of the Xbox hardware for sale, and have a complete monopoly on digital game distribution through their OS. >Appl…

> How is iOS fundamentally different from the Xbox OS? If I have to explain in brief, because the intended use for it is to be a multipurpose OS just how Windows/OS X were. Xbox OS is about games and media streaming, while iOS/Android in addition to what Xbox OS does are about image editing, word processing, managing email, browsing web and much more. They are the spiritual successors to the laptop/desktop OSs. Platf…

>I think we are going around in circles on this. Even 14% worldwide is significant enough for me to ask for regulation but the right number to look at is, app revenue generated.

This is such an absurd comment. Revenue has nothing to do with whether a company is a monopoly. Monopoly has to do with competition. Do you have a choice to use a company other than Apple? Yes, unequivocally yes. Apple, with their 14% market share do not have a monopoly. You can't just willy nilly make shit up to fit your argument.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#882
post #208

All the arguments about what company is most evil entirely miss the point. You don't make a decision on a specific issue based on what company you like more, you base it on who is right on the specific issue. From an ethical perspective that's what having a codified rule of laws is all about. Everyone get's the same rules no matter how much you like them. You don't arbitrarily punish people for doing things you don't…

The wider context around the specific issues can still be useful in deciding what's "best" (distinct from "right"). EG: look at the antitrust case Apple lost over eBook pricing. The rules said they should lose in order to ensure a fair market for eBooks, a minute's consideration of the wider context said that if they lost Amazon would suck up the entire market. Which it did. The net result, even if narrowly within th…

"Best" for whom? Any action has the potential to be either good or bad, depending on who you ask. But if it has a positive impact on society as a whole - that's probably good enough. And striving to do the right thing, upholding important beliefs like fair access to justice and freedom of speech, these certainly fall in that category.

If a smaller company, or even one of us on HN had sued Apple would that suddenly make it okay? Apple's actions haven't changed, why should the identity of the plaintiff matter?

Regarding your specific example - if Amazon is doing something wrong, then an antitrust case should be brought against them too. But that doesn't (and shouldn't) give anyone the right to continue doing something unethical and illegal.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#883
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an intentional trick to force you to keep paying. The vast vast majority of people have access to a Windows PC or Apple product. How you ended up in this edge case I'll never know. To take this to it's logical conclusion, what if you don't run JavaScript on your browsers. Would they also need to give you a cancelation page which doesn't require JavaScript.

Of course you should be able to cancel without requiring JavaScript.

Alright, after returning my iOS device I became Amish.

I fully expect Apple to cancel my subscription via Mail and refund me back dated to when the letter was post dated !

My point is Apple isn't doing this on purpose to you, you're just in a very strange use case

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#884
post #879
post #859

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple does not have a “monopoly on iPhone hardware and iOS”. This is a fundamental misunderstand of the term. You cannot have a monopoly on your own product, because a monopoly is a state of a market and your own product is not a market. Understanding this is fundamental to the actual legal issue at hand. First, the argument against Apple is not that they are bundling an App Store with their iPhone. The argument agai…

> Apple does not have a “monopoly on iPhone hardware and iOS”. This is a fundamental misunderstand of the term. You cannot have a monopoly on your own product, because a monopoly is a state of a market and your own product is not a market. Precedent deeply disagrees with you on this. At the supreme court level see Eastman Kodak Co. v. Image Technical Services Inc. To quote the first paragraph of wikipedia out of lazi…

> "Your claim that you can't have a monopoly on IPhone apps because IPhone is apple's product is fundamentally flawed".

I never claimed that at all.

It's a question for the courts to decide if it wants to allow Apple's current App Store contract to stand, and if not, what remedy they propose. But it wouldn't be because Apple has a "monopoly" on the iPhone or iOS, it would ride partly on the question of, from your own source, "whether consumers entered into such "contracts" knowing that they were agreeing to such a commitment", and I suppose partly on whether the contract is illegally anti-competitive even if it was entered into knowingly.

Further quoting from your own source, Newcal v Icon;

"First and foremost, the relevant market must be a product market. The consumers do not define the boundaries of the market; the products or producers do. Second, the market must encompass the product at issue as well as all economic substitutes for the product. As the Supreme Court has instructed, "The outer boundaries of a product market are determined by the reasonable interchangeability of use or the cross-elasticity of demand between the product itself and substitutes for it." As such, the relevant market must include "the group or groups of sellers or producers who have actual or potential ability to deprive each other of significant levels of business."

Further reading of that case (a great example by the way) involves discussion of an interesting case against Domino's pizza. Franchisees attempted to sue because they were contractually required to purchase ingredients from Domino's, and Domino's therefore held a monopoly on their ingredients. It's not that substitute ingredients didn't exist, they just weren't allowed by Domino's to buy them.

Similarly with the App Store, it's not that other apps don't exist, it's just that contracturally, iOS doesn't allow you to download them. There is a competitive market for apps (very clearly!) but yet the market for apps on an iPhone is contractually limited in a way which you might be tempted to call a monopoly. The Third Circuit ruled otherwise. As long as customers knowingly entered into this contract, the existence of the contract provision does not create a illegal monopoly.

> "The Third Circuit held that the contractually created difference among otherwise-substitutable products was insufficient to create an economically distinct antitrust submarket."

The counter argument is given as Kodak v. Image Technical Services. In this case, Kodak is monopolizing the market for repair parts and services. The Supreme Court rules that buyers of Kodak machines could not reasonably predict that such a purchase would lock them into buying overpriced Kodak parts and services down the line.

> The Court rejected that analogy on the ground that the consumers could not, at the time of purchase, reasonably discover that Kodak monopolized the service market and charged supracompetitive prices for its service. Id. Kodak's market power in parts and services, therefore, did not arise from a knowing contractual (or quasi-contractual), arrangement.

By comparison, no one who is buying an iPhone could reasonably be unaware that the App Store is the only way to install apps on it.

More importantly, Apple isn't being sued by consumers. It's being sued by App Developers, who did certainly quite knowingly enter into a contract with Apple to write apps for their platform.

I don't know of any statue that requires Apple to provide access to their own device to third party software developers. Third parties can write an app for iOS or not, but when they do so, developers enter into a contract with Apple that decidedly comes with some conditions.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#885
post #879
post #859

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple does not have a “monopoly on iPhone hardware and iOS”. This is a fundamental misunderstand of the term. You cannot have a monopoly on your own product, because a monopoly is a state of a market and your own product is not a market. Understanding this is fundamental to the actual legal issue at hand. First, the argument against Apple is not that they are bundling an App Store with their iPhone. The argument agai…

> Apple does not have a “monopoly on iPhone hardware and iOS”. This is a fundamental misunderstand of the term. You cannot have a monopoly on your own product, because a monopoly is a state of a market and your own product is not a market. Precedent deeply disagrees with you on this. At the supreme court level see Eastman Kodak Co. v. Image Technical Services Inc. To quote the first paragraph of wikipedia out of lazi…

Note that Eastman Kodak is viewed in legal circles as the exception to the general rule of disallowing single-brand relevant markets, due to the particular circumstances of the case.

In Kodak, customers originally purchased Kodak copiers without any restrictions, and then several years later Kodak changed their policy and stopped selling repair parts to third-party servicers, which left customers locked into buying repair services from Kodak instead.

In Newcal, IKON amended their lease agreements with their customers without disclosing to the customers that the length of their service contracts would be extended as well, similarly leaving customers locked into buying services from IKON.

In both of those cases, there was an element of deception, and customers did not know that they would be restricted in the aftermarket when they made their original purchase. It's tough to argue that those circumstances apply here, since Apple's policies have been clear since the launch of the App Store and have never changed. In fact, some courts have interpreted Kodak to mean that absent a change in policy, Kodak does not apply.

Note that the paragraph you quoted specifically says: "the law permits an inquiry into whether a consumer's selection of a particular brand in the competitive market is the functional equivalent of a contractual commitment, giving that brand an agreed-upon right to monopolize its consumers in an aftermarket." I expect Apple will be able to successfully convince the court that this is indeed the case.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#886
post #884
post #879

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple does not have a “monopoly on iPhone hardware and iOS”. This is a fundamental misunderstand of the term. You cannot have a monopoly on your own product, because a monopoly is a state of a market and your own product is not a market. Precedent deeply disagrees with you on this. At the supreme court level see Eastman Kodak Co. v. Image Technical Services Inc. To quote the first paragraph of wikipedia out of lazi…

> "Your claim that you can't have a monopoly on IPhone apps because IPhone is apple's product is fundamentally flawed". I never claimed that at all. It's a question for the courts to decide if it wants to allow Apple's current App Store contract to stand, and if not, what remedy they propose. But it wouldn't be because Apple has a "monopoly" on the iPhone or iOS, it would ride partly on the question of, from your own…

If that first sentence isn't what you meant then I'm afraid I've totally missed your point, and continue to miss it.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#887
post #879

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple does not have a “monopoly on iPhone hardware and iOS”. This is a fundamental misunderstand of the term. You cannot have a monopoly on your own product, because a monopoly is a state of a market and your own product is not a market. Precedent deeply disagrees with you on this. At the supreme court level see Eastman Kodak Co. v. Image Technical Services Inc. To quote the first paragraph of wikipedia out of lazi…

Note that Eastman Kodak is viewed in legal circles as the exception to the general rule of disallowing single-brand relevant markets, due to the particular circumstances of the case. In Kodak , customers originally purchased Kodak copiers without any restrictions, and then several years later Kodak changed their policy and stopped selling repair parts to third-party servicers, which left customers locked into buying…

If I was epic I think I would be focusing on the fact that consumers generally don't have any idea about the restriction on payment providers, and that the terms of that restriction have changed over time.

But that gives up on half the case, so we'll see what they do.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#888
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it means Sony has to add Steam to PS5 or else it is narrow and arbitrary. To me the iPhone is a console, end of story. If you like the console experience, it’s a great device. If you don’t, there are a million android and even alternative OS based phones out there which are more like a PC. If you want your phone to be a PC, you should do what most people around the world do and buy one of those. Instead we have…

>To me the iPhone is a console, end of story. I'm so tired of hearing this ridiculous analogy. From a purely technical stand point it may be true, but for a large chunk of the population, the smartphone is their one and only connection to the digital world. It controls their connection to their bank accounts, governments, news/discourse, family, friends, dating life, education (formal and informal), medical informati…

> It's a base-level necessity for modern life.

That is not true, people think they couldn't survive without their smartphones but anecdotally, and as a systems engineer, I feel free without it. I use a PC for work and play, but not having a computer in my pocket constantly spamming me with trivial notifications helps me delineate life and the digital world. I used to waste way too much time on my smartphone as well, with a daily screen time of 5 hours, so now I find that I've got more time for hobbies, friends & family.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#889

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don’t really have a choice Why do you not have a choice? If your product is not stocked in Walmart or Amazon, who make up the bulk of U.S. retail, can you not make money? Having your app exclusively on Android can make plenty of money. Epic makes plenty of money on other platforms. Many game publishers are successful publishing exclusively for one console. Pandora was fine before mobile apps. Many dating websit…

It's not a question of whether you can "make plenty of money". It's whether we want to allow private regulation of markets. Right now Google and Apple are the regulators of the mobile app market - the public has no say in how those marketplaces are run, and both companies use their ownership of the OS platforms to enforce this market control. Antitrust actions are aimed at restoring public oversight over public marke…

I think it's important to consider whether the "mobile app market" should be considered a separate entity from the "software" market. Arguably almost all the functionality of mobile apps can be achieved using websites (accessible on the phone) and/or computer software. For comparison, Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft have a stranglehold on the console video game market, but because consoles aren't the only way to play games (though they are arguably they are necessary to make a AAA title profitable) it doesn't seem as egregious as what Apple is doing. When you're writing regulation and enforcing regulation it is important to clearly define the line is and I don't think it's clear here where exactly Apple has overstepped the role of a curator and become a gatekeeper -- they're powerful but they are not clearly (at least to me) the only game in town or even in a duopoly when it comes to software in general. If mobile apps in particular can be unambiguously shown to be meaningful and distinct as a market category, then I absolutely agree with your point.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#890
post #886
post #884

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Your claim that you can't have a monopoly on IPhone apps because IPhone is apple's product is fundamentally flawed". I never claimed that at all. It's a question for the courts to decide if it wants to allow Apple's current App Store contract to stand, and if not, what remedy they propose. But it wouldn't be because Apple has a "monopoly" on the iPhone or iOS, it would ride partly on the question of, from your own…

If that first sentence isn't what you meant then I'm afraid I've totally missed your point, and continue to miss it.

Perhaps I don't know what you mean "monopoly on iPhone Apps". I said they don't have a monopoly on iPhone or iOS, because such a statement is nonsensical.

It seems to me that you moved the goalposts to talking about iPhone apps.

I mean, they obviously don't have a monopoly on iPhone apps either (probably 99.99% of all apps are not written by Apple). What they have is significant and costly contractual terms which they require developers to agree to before they let you publish an app on their device. Some argue that those terms may be illegally anti-competitive, but it wouldn't be because of a "monopoly".

The court case you referenced emphatically states that explicit contractual provisions cannot form the boundaries of an antitrust submarket.

Fundamentally consumers have a choice when they buy a smartphone. They can choose from several different manufacturers, and the market is highly competitive. The whole beauty of a capitalist market is that companies get to choose the features and experience their product provides to differentiate themselves, and as long as consumers have a choice between products, those products should live or die based on those features and experience.

Apple is clearly doing quite well in a highly competitive market making the product design choices they are making, because consumers are choosing that experience over the alternative.

To bring it back to the Kodak case, if we were to consider whether Apple has a monopoly on iPhone repair & service, I would say, "Hey gpm, that's entirely possible. I don't know if they do or don't, but it's important that they aren't anti-competitively dominating that market!" Repair and service of a brand is logically quite different from the brand itself.

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