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What happened to the Semantic Web? (2017) [pdf]

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Re: What happened to the Semantic Web? (2017) [pdf]

#31
post #9

I was replying to another commenter, but they deleted their post. I still think my response is legitimate, and I'd like to discuss. I'm including the post and my response to it: > This might be an unpopular opinion, but the Semantic Web was yet another idea that only could've come from Architecture Astronauts. Neither web developers nor web users wanted or needed it, but the Astronauts just kept pushing forward, with…

I'm quite sceptical that "a queryable ontology. With a rich and expressive grammar" would be so obviously easy to use and great that it threatened Google, rather than Google being a frontend for said ontology (that you still need to crawl first to use!). And indeed, what remains of semantic-web like data is massively pushed by Google today, because it makes it a easier for them to provide results based on that - and if you want to convince someone to add it to a website in a commercial setting, "it helps Google understand our site" is the primary argument that sticks (even though it also helps others parse sites).

Which IMHO points to the main problem: Publishing semantic data is work, and had no clear value proposition you could sell businesses on, and it ran out of steam before someone made a convincing one. Niches that see the need for such data publishing still are willing to use this stuff or alternatives, but for the general majority of publishers it isn't there, or actively seen as a negative.

It also didn't help that IMHO the focus was to much on what was theoretically possible, but not on making it actually easy to use, which made even more devs ignore it or build alternatives because the entry hurdle is steep. Plenty APIs could build on semantic web tech, but they don't because a custom REST API is typically just easier to do and thus more familiar. (Despite semantic tech having the groundworks for lots of what's seen as new-ish trends like API generators/machine readable API docs/...)

Re: What happened to the Semantic Web? (2017) [pdf]

#32
There's two big things missing in this discussion of the Semantic Web to me,

1. Developers. Historically Semantic Web was a lot of RDF & Sparql, which are both imo fairly hostile to developers. There were some decent libraries, but often written in a very oldschool style that made it difficult to even load or use, & with frankly pitiful documentation/tests. A lot of the databases/tooling was paid/proprietary.

The development story is looking much better. Oddball RDF & Sparql are joined by much more mainstream-dev friendly tools: Microdata which is pretty simple marked up HTML & JSON-LD which looks & works like JSON, with a little extra "context" sprinkled in at the top. Libraries are much improved & modernized & mainstream-dev compliant. Datastores like Apache Jena are far more used & there's a lot of ActivityPub & related json-ld-centric data-stores & systems being created & experimented with.

2. Users. The article talks about primary use cases for semantic web, and they are all huge massive industries, not people. We needed semantic web because it would help search. We needed semantic web because it would help social. We needed social web because it would help e-commerce (& look, an article from yesterday about just that![1]).

What's missing is end users. I don't mind that super-large data systems can do interesting things with semantic web. But to me, the purpose was always to enrich the information we users see online with our eyes with powerful & consistent data that our own machines can help use. Our navigator should be helping us, showing us what digital matter we are seeing on the page, rather than letting the page exist as one enormous standalone artifact implicitly composed of arbitrary text & images. There's meaning there, there's thing that we are working with, & semantic web gives us a common operating system for talking about things, & managing them.

Users are still somewhat missing from semantic web. Folks like ActivityPub are doing a wonderful & interesting job using Semantic Web to build common distributed platforms for social, where we can talk about digital matter like Shares and Photos and Favorites in a common way. For now, the semantic web tech remains under the hood, something abstract powering a client that abstracts over the semantic meaning to generate just another anonymous web page, filled with articles and photos and listens and viewings & other social entities, but presented through the veneer of the application, not as discrete social objects unto themselves. I think we're only just starting to explore how to open the Semantic Web up, how to represent semantic data entities & data stores, in a way that will let users interact directly with digital objects, rather than needing the artifice & instrumentation of the application. But this is pretty deep conjecture. What I think is clearer to say is that the end-user has, until very recently, has not seen or understood how semantic web technology might be helping them; it's been a tool for businesses & big data. I look forward to the interesting era of Semantic Web, the era now breaking upon us, when we get to explore how having structured meaningful data can be good for individuals, persons, for personal computing, for small & medium data, & especially, for us to begin to communicate with each other over better structured data. And I think JSON-LD, ActivityPub, & the semantic web is, by far, the most promising & straightforward way to explore these virtues of structured communication.

By contrast, the article's talk about "what's next" is yet more academic projects, machine learning, & trying to represent more things (like actions, which is something absolutely core to what ActivityPub does: represent activities[2]!).

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24557027

[2] https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/

Re: What happened to the Semantic Web? (2017) [pdf]

#33
post #9

I was replying to another commenter, but they deleted their post. I still think my response is legitimate, and I'd like to discuss. I'm including the post and my response to it: > This might be an unpopular opinion, but the Semantic Web was yet another idea that only could've come from Architecture Astronauts. Neither web developers nor web users wanted or needed it, but the Astronauts just kept pushing forward, with…

> Google actually knee-capped the web with the WHATWG's focus on less semantic documents.

There's one teensy problem with your thesis: Google came late to the WHATWG.

The WHATWG started initially as a joint Mozilla-Opera project [1] to basically standardize what you had to do to parse the crap that passes for webpages (including de-facto standard behavior for DOM at the time). At the same time, it also included a variety of speculative features to push the capabilities of the web forward: , , , not to mention Web Forms (eventually morphed into all the nice, new types). It even had semantic elements: // originate from WHATWG, after all. Not to mention microdata, too.

Google Chrome doesn't come out until 2008. XHTML 2.0 is put out of its misery in 2009, but that the WHATWG was now the driving force in HTML innovation was clear by 2006 or 2007, by virtue of all browser vendors focusing on WHATWG HTML support and not W3C XHTML 2.0. The W3C tries to regain relevance by staring from WHATWG HTML instead of XHTML for HTML 5 in 2007.

[1] Apple was also involved very near the beginning, but I don't know to what degree it was involved.

Re: What happened to the Semantic Web? (2017) [pdf]

#34
The abstraction was at the wrong level - text/images/executables/etc is the right level, so essentially simple file formats upon the underlying wire/binary.

Ontologies and so forth are an example of classic modernism (a clockwork universe that we can understand completely). Turns out real life is much more interesting!

Re: What happened to the Semantic Web? (2017) [pdf]

#36
post #9

I was replying to another commenter, but they deleted their post. I still think my response is legitimate, and I'd like to discuss. I'm including the post and my response to it: > This might be an unpopular opinion, but the Semantic Web was yet another idea that only could've come from Architecture Astronauts. Neither web developers nor web users wanted or needed it, but the Astronauts just kept pushing forward, with…

[Source/disclaimer: I was working on a number of these markup parsing & unstructured data mining projects at Google in the 2009-2014 timeframe, and also wrote an HTML5 parser with the cooperation of the WHATWG. I left for about 6 years during the time period when Google began to be seen as this evil goliath, but I'm back now. My views are my own and don't represent my employer.]

You've got the cause & effect backwards. Google invested heavily in existing standards-based microformats (RDF, schema.org, OpenSocial, various rel= standards) before ultimately concluding that web developers cannot be trusted to get markup right, and most don't want to do it in the first place. It was only after this failure that we threw out all the markup parsing and went to machine-learning & algorithmic approaches, and then eventually to just owning a bunch of the content platforms where people write content.

Customer desires - in the form of what people will actually do, not what they claim they want to do - ultimately decide the structure of a market. If a large number of competing publishers all decide they want to publish content and users divide their attention evenly among them, you get open standards, protocols, and aggregators. If users decide they all want to view the most popular content, then the dominant firms become more dominant, you get silos and walled gardens (and eventually paywalls), and power shifts from an open ecosystem to a few dominant players. Google was built on the open web and embraced the philosophy of it for longer than any other major company, but people there are very pragmatic. When it became clear that there would be a few dominant companies, the priority shifted to being one of them rather than investing in (and getting screwed by) an open ecosystem that was disappearing.

Re: What happened to the Semantic Web? (2017) [pdf]

#37
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not knowlegeable in semantic web but isn't a hashtag a form of semantic categorizing of data? If so the hashtag movement is very recent. I always wondered who the hastags serve: humans or machines? I think it was machines firstly but then it got appropriated by social dynamics of people and business.

The semantic web was much richer. You could build an ontology in RDF [1] or OWL [2] and link the grammars together. FOAF [3] was a means of describing your friends and social connections, and it allowed rich annotation. No tools were ever built around this because by the time it started taking off, Facebook and MySpace were already a thing. The great thing about these technologies is that the graph is public and you…

> The semantic web was much richer

Which is probably why it failed. Richer means more complex, means higher effort, means harder to justify the immediate effort.

It also means more difficult to figure out which sources are trustworthy because it all gets mangled together. The success of google is not that they are good at indexing, but good at ranking. People are constantly trying to game the search engine system. The naive model of querying a semantic web builtup doesn't mesh well with a certain percent of participants being malicious.

And that's excluding the whole problem that scaling searching large complex graph databases is basically an unsolved problem

Re: What happened to the Semantic Web? (2017) [pdf]

#38
Isn't the schema.org annotations the semantic web? My understanding is that the adoption small i.e. Wiki says 17% (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema.org). Forrester suggests a lack of awareness of the Semantic web by marketers and content creators (https://advertiseonbing.blob.core.windows.net/blob/bingads/m...)

Re: What happened to the Semantic Web? (2017) [pdf]

#39
I feel like recently the semantic web is gaining a bit of a resurgance with wikidata.

But i think the general vision of individual mutually untrusted individuals participating in an interconnected knowledge graph is pretty dead.

* its hard to do quality/concistency control on that which makes the results less useful.

* RDF is rediculously complicated. Microformats/rdfa is a bit better, but still it essentially requires specialist knowledge to do this properly. This strongly discourages average joe from just adding annotations.

* unclear value proposition at the small scale.

* it is very difficult to scale complex queries on large semantic data sets. It can often be hard to predict how performance will change over time. Compare to traditional relational DBs which have very predictable scalability and lots of DBAs who know how to optimize. I think this is probably the biggest hurdle to large-scale adoption.

* * key example: the example queries at https://query.wikidata.org are pretty magical, but when you try your own, you can quickly run into timeouts, especially when nested deeply in a graph (e.g. find all species of plants matching some property)

Re: What happened to the Semantic Web? (2017) [pdf]

#40

People can't be bothered to run their own websites, that is what happened. Wikidata was launched, so now you can just host your data there. Wikidata has better searching than the real semantic web could ever get, since it has a team of devs and sysadmins with a view of the whole dataset. Also, the Semantic Web had no story for how to contact authors and suggest changes to their schema. DNS does not provide sufficient…

> Also, the Semantic Web had no story for how to contact authors and suggest changes to their schema. DNS does not provide sufficient identity or messaging.

What's wrong with just emailing webmaster@domain.tld ? That usually works.

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