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Mark in the Middle

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Re: Mark in the Middle

#501
post #490
post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair, but Russia is the most direct example of the specific fears mentioned in spreading disinformation with the goal of polarization as opposed to a different specific goal. When the US spreads propaganda in a foreign country, it is usually to get the people to align with US values as opposed to a goal of destabilization.

That’s deeply false. The US has engineered and provided support for coups around the world. Does that not count as destabilization?

>The US has engineered and provided support for coups around the world

With the goal of allies gaining power. That is fundamentally different than Russian's initial goal of simply knocking the US out of their superpower role by causing polarization, internal strife, loss of faith in institutions, and just general chaos. I think people associate Russian disinformation as purely a right wing phenomenon because that is where they have had more success, but there is plenty of Russian disinformation targeted at and supporting the left wing too.

Re: Mark in the Middle

#502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty simple, although it may not be obvious. There are 2 different views about "what freedom/democracy is" that are presently doing battle in america, at least among inteligentsia One, the worldview embedded into your comment, is that freedom is about the limits of discourse. Under this system, limiting discourse is inherently undemocratic, so if facebook "censor(s) things they disagree with" this is bad and w…

You're doing a poor job of explaining the first worldview. Which is okay, you've acknowledged that you have trouble understanding it. This worldview has been called the "liberal consensus". What it holds is that the power to determine a discourse is inherently against freedom is corrupting , and by allowing an authority to determine that, it will inevitably be used as a weapon. Goalposts will shift. We will, hmm, go…

> they are false in a different way.

In what different way? Has not both been scientifically refuted by reputable scientists? Just because one sounded more plausible doesn't mean it's not false.

To me, both needn't be banned, because I believe and agree with your premise, but I don't agree there's a difference.

Re: Mark in the Middle

#503
post #501
post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s deeply false. The US has engineered and provided support for coups around the world. Does that not count as destabilization?

>The US has engineered and provided support for coups around the world With the goal of allies gaining power. That is fundamentally different than Russian's initial goal of simply knocking the US out of their superpower role by causing polarization, internal strife, loss of faith in institutions, and just general chaos. I think people associate Russian disinformation as purely a right wing phenomenon because that is…

> With the goal of allies gaining power. That is fundamentally different than Russian's initial goal of simply knocking the US out of their superpower role

Why do you think Russia is trying to knock the US out of its superpower of its superpower role? They’re not doing it just to be petty.

Re: Mark in the Middle

#504
Verifiably false things should not be allowed. The assumption that everyone has the capacity (time, expertise,.. ) to tell apart truth from lies is a very big assumption. Even if it were true, it would not come for free for the individual.

No one would argue that in a restaurant it is on if half of the foods are spoiled because we could tell them apart from the good ones if we examined then closely. Why the same is not true for our brains?

Re: Mark in the Middle

#505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a widely understood example that is perfectly fine to use, since the underlying concept is immediately understandable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_the... If you're feeling pedantic, perhaps you can replace the phrase with "yelling things to incite an imminent lawless action" (to crib from Wikipedia's summarization of Brandenburg ) any time anyone ever says it. Does that work for you?…

> It's a widely understood example that is perfectly fine to use It is a misquote (leaving out "falsely", a modifier which is key to the meaning of the original quote) of a statement the original of which is inaccurate as a description of the prior state of the law when the case it was in was decided, or the state of the law once the case was decided (being dicta, it itself had no binding effect), or the current stat…

> It is, almost literally, the worst example that you could use.

But it's the one everybody knows. Society has chosen it as the common term for the concept by now. Its original source or accuracy is entirely irrelevant -- in the same way it would be missing the point to complain that "black holes" aren't technically black.

After all, we're not having a discussion between lawyers about the intracacies of US free speech law. It's just a phrase for referring to the general concept of rights not being absolute.

Re: Mark in the Middle

#506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do not confuse disagreeing with someone as that person being morally sub-human If your disagreement with that person is about whether someone else is considered less of a human than they are (by dint of race, wealth, sexuality, whatever), it's probably ok to consider them morally bankrupt on that basis.

Sure - but they can still participate in society. Why shouldn't they? A klansman like Robert Byrd turned his life around. This is after Al Gore's father and he filibustered the civil rights act. Byrd went on to mentor Hillary Clinton, and I assume Al Gore's father was an influence on his son - the Vice President of the United States and the first lady, who went on to become a Senator from New York and then almost bec…

> I'm not afraid of engaging with white supremacists, they always lose anyway.

The current state of the USA would disagree with you.

> the more we let them speak, the weaker their allure will be.

Except, somehow, they keep getting elected.

Re: Mark in the Middle

#507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>so control over dangerous ideas makes sense to them This is another concept that confuses me 'dangerous ideas'. How is that different than what the church did with things like witchcraft and paganism, those were 'dangerous ideas'. What makes an idea dangerous? If there's dangerous ideas are there safe ideas? What makes an idea safe? Can you give me and example of a safe idea vs a dangerous idea? Who decides which id…

You start out "what is with people these days" and then you end up "oh hey people have been doing this forever, with heresy and religion and so on" so... no, I don't see where you're going with this. Are you surprised that arguments about which messages get amplified and which do not happen? That they happened historically and that they happen now? That Facebook (and other pieces of modern technology) have reinvigora…

I'm gonna respond to this comment, but this is also to bleach drinking commenter and Nazi commenter. What all of you describe are actions. Each of these arguments are the same argument, someone did something bad because ideas, therefore the ideas that led to those actions are dangerous.

Each of these arguments presumes that if somehow, you'd managed to control the ideas of these people, then just maybe those terrible things wouldn't have happened.

The kinds of people that let ideas sway them into terrible actions aren't going to suddenly not find an excuse to do terrible things, they'll just look for another idea that justifies it.

You can't police ideas based on the worries of bad things happening because ideas exist.

People do shitty things and justify it with whatever excuses they want, trying to remove an idea is a pointless gesture and in the end impedes on the freedom of all because, something bad might happen if the wrong person hears the wrong idea.

And again comes down to:

'There's a moral authority that knows best and the rest of humanity is too irrational to be left to their own devices, therefore the moral authority must control the beliefs and ideas of the rest'

Re: Mark in the Middle

#508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you look at /r/politics on reddit you see the opposite problem (over-representation - nearly 100% - liberal news sources) Is this actually true? I get that there's usually one or two left-leaning sources on there, but more than half of the stories on /r/politics (the top 30 stories, as of 9/24 in my browser) are from centrist / conservative-leaning news sources. The real problem seems to be that the overton wind…

Trying to redefine the political landscape according to your niche views is really pointless. Obviously the conversation is being conducted with the understanding that the US left/right/center are the reference points. There's no more point to this comment than there would be to a libertarian saying that Facebook shares are all from "statist" news sources.

> Obviously the conversation is being conducted with the understanding that the US left/right/center are the reference points.

Right. And by US reference points, /r/politics stories news sources are generally centrist or right-leaning. The comments and commenters may not be, but the stories and sources definitely are.

Even by US standards, MSNBC, USA Today, Politico, Washington Post, Newsweek, NY Times are all centrist or right-leaning news sources. And all of those have stories on the front page of /r/politics right now.

Re: Mark in the Middle

#509
post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The US has engineered and provided support for coups around the world With the goal of allies gaining power. That is fundamentally different than Russian's initial goal of simply knocking the US out of their superpower role by causing polarization, internal strife, loss of faith in institutions, and just general chaos. I think people associate Russian disinformation as purely a right wing phenomenon because that is…

> With the goal of allies gaining power. That is fundamentally different than Russian's initial goal of simply knocking the US out of their superpower role Why do you think Russia is trying to knock the US out of its superpower of its superpower role? They’re not doing it just to be petty.

Who said they were doing it to be petty? They are doing it because we have a hostile relationship, not because they want to eventually be allies.

There is a fundamental difference between let's interfere with this country to install a friendly government and let's interfere with this country so it rips itself apart.

Re: Mark in the Middle

#510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty simple, although it may not be obvious. There are 2 different views about "what freedom/democracy is" that are presently doing battle in america, at least among inteligentsia One, the worldview embedded into your comment, is that freedom is about the limits of discourse. Under this system, limiting discourse is inherently undemocratic, so if facebook "censor(s) things they disagree with" this is bad and w…

You're doing a poor job of explaining the first worldview. Which is okay, you've acknowledged that you have trouble understanding it. This worldview has been called the "liberal consensus". What it holds is that the power to determine a discourse is inherently against freedom is corrupting , and by allowing an authority to determine that, it will inevitably be used as a weapon. Goalposts will shift. We will, hmm, go…

I freely concede that I'm doing a poor job of defending it, because it isn't my view to defend. The part of it that I don't understand is limited to how it is self-consistent, which is not something I see addressed in your reply, although I could be mistaken.

But I think we are still saying talking points instead of getting to the core. I understand and I share the concern about an important voice being silenced. But I think the mechanism of that silence in the current environment is probably related to loudness of noise rather than quietness of signal. Obviously, it may be different at different situations and times in history. But I think if our goal is to hear quiet voices we ought to consider both sources of the issue pretty seriously. A philosophy that only considers the problem of transmitting and ignores the problem of receiving through a noisefloor seems an incomplete troubleshooting procedure to me.

Whereas you perceive a threat about the slide into censorship, I perceive a threat about the slide into unrest and violence. In reality, it seems likely we will get both: one of them first and the other following as a reaction. So I think our interests would really be best served by hammering out a workable compromise so as to hang together rather than separately.

I agree that we ought to return to the "liberal discourse", but we may perceive its makeup differently. Limitations on discourse have always been part and parcel of the institution. Some limitations have been very harmful. Others, like 'you can't threaten not to leave when you lose an election', have been very helpful. Liberal discourse is presently threatened because we have abandoned that sort of polite limitation, and it is by reintroducing it that we can recover the institution.

> If we had an oracle of truth, then censorship of falsehood would be easy and practical. We also wouldn't need democracy at all, we could just ask the oracle of truth what to do, and do it. But we don't have any such creature.

This is a bit of a strawman. I do empathize with the skepticism of authority in our present climate. However, you rely on some method to determine whether a person is doing censorship in the same way I rely on a method to determine if a person is doing misinformation. I expect it is a similar method, which is to say, imperfectly, based on values present in our historical age, individual biases, and so on. Which is the "same sort of stuff" that democracy otherwise uses to make any of its decisions.

I expect this dispute arises because, in your worldview, limiting the discourse is very exceptional, and doing it properly should require an exceptional method. Whereas from my perspective, laws, elections, jail, and wars are very serious, and we have processes to decide those.

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