If anyone is interested in using a source-available license for their own code, the Polyform Project has a set of standardized, source-available licenses. https://polyformproject.org/ PolyForm Shield would probably achieve the same result as the Timescale License. https://polyformproject.org/licenses/shield/1.0.0/
An update to the Timescale license
101–110 of 210 posts
Re: An update to the Timescale license
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
> because I don't know what the license permits That's why you read it...
Yes, and then, if I'm smart, spend time and money discussing it with attorneys and/or other experts, who will probably tell me that they don't know either, because there is no body of case law concerning this new and unique "special snowflake" of a license..., etc, etc. Of course I could just "wing it", read through it, and work off my layman's interpretation and hope for the best. Or.. I could choose to stick to wel…
In this case though, TimescaleDB has blog posts that describe the license in very plain language, and provide clear examples of what you can and can't do - you can basically do anything except provide it as a service. No need to "wing it".
Re: An update to the Timescale license
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
How does AGPL address this?
The original problem was Amazon "leeching off their software without paying for it". If Amazon shares their changes (as the AGPL requires), then they're contributing, not leeching. If the problem is just that Amazon happens to use a product, or horror of horrors, offer a hosted version... I dunno, I just can't see what the issue is. Is every developer upset about people profiting off their work sending a monthly chec…
I do wonder, in a non-free world like that, if we'd have a higher proportion of "tech giants" still in the "making software" space instead of being so advertising-centric with Google, Facebook, etc's, main revenue streams.
Re: An update to the Timescale license
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The AGPL allows Amazon to offer a competing service. It just needs to be open-source. Sure, but if the problem is "leeching off their software without paying for it", then being obligated to share their changes should fix the "leeching" bit. I mean, is Amazon leeching off Linux by shipping it on all their devices?
My own perspective is that companies should probably stop saying that "if only Amazon would contribute back the occasional patch, everything would be fine." If much of the future is cloud, then getting the hyper-scalars to contribute occasional patches doesn't solve the problem of competition. That's reflected in our post: Some may ask, “Why create a new license - why not just compete with public clouds by just provi…
This is my main problem with this type of licenses, none of them really seem to have any interest in actually getting the public cloud vendors to compete or buy services or contribute (financially or otherwise) to the upstream project. It just perpetuates the problem because now your company is the one doing it by telling customers they have to sign your agreement and can never buy from any other vendor. I'm sorry if this is an overly negative assessment but I just can't see it as much more than passing the buck when there is no attempt at reciprocity, through copyleft or through some other means. (As much as I had criticism of the SSPL, at least it tried to have this)
Re: An update to the Timescale license
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'm curious to see if some vocal people here will still not be satisfied with anything short of a OSI-approved FOSS license. I don't have a problem with the terms of their license. Use whatever license you want — just don't call it "open source" ! From the blog post... This is problematic: > open-source in spirit It ain't. It is firmly in the spirit of "source available" licenses, which have a decades-long history…
Hard disagree. The OSI may have "Open Source" in its name, but we decide what "open source" means. And I agree with the 'spirit' of open source, which is based in RMS' inability to replace code on his printer. The right to study the code running on your hardware, the right to make modifications to it, the right to distribute those modifications. This "it's not open-source unless you allow Amazon to profit from your c…
Re: An update to the Timescale license
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
The new Timescale License doesn't only restrict AWS, it restricts anyone not Timescale from offering management services for the Timescale Licensed code. It restricts customers who find that Timescale is unable or unwilling to support them in an agree-able manner from paying some one else to manage it for them. All that is fine and dandy- it is clear that Timescale is open-core, with an Apache-licensed core and propr…
> It restricts customers who find that Timescale is unable or unwilling to support them in an agree-able manner from paying some one else to manage it for them. It restricts Customers from going to a Timescale-as-a-Service provider, but I don't see how it restricts the Customer from contracting to have a third-party support the Customer's Timescale installation (or to make changes to the codebase as a work-for-hire).…
The only restriction is that you can’t (necessarily) provide TSAAS for free. To me that’s free as in speech but not free as in beer, and is well within my personal understanding of “free software”. As the saying goes, the right to speech doesn’t imply the right to be heard; likewise, the right to inspect and modify software doesn’t necessarily imply the right to profit from it.
Re: An update to the Timescale license
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hard disagree. The OSI may have "Open Source" in its name, but we decide what "open source" means. And I agree with the 'spirit' of open source, which is based in RMS' inability to replace code on his printer. The right to study the code running on your hardware, the right to make modifications to it, the right to distribute those modifications. This "it's not open-source unless you allow Amazon to profit from your c…
What about the AGPL? Wouldn’t it grant “the right to study the code running on your hardware, the right to make modifications to it, the right to distribute those modifications” and provide protection from FAANG profiting without reciprocating, while being OSI and FSF approved?
Re: An update to the Timescale license
#108Re: An update to the Timescale license
#109I think that what the "purist" view is not considering so much is that, when it comes to a company like Timescale, the choice isn't between "OSI" and "source available", it's between "source available" and "closed source". They're a company that wants to make a profit from the software it spends resources to develop. The debate seems to be mostly on whether this license should be called "open source", but I think there's an implicit value judgement there, which I'd like to make explicit.
I'd like to clarify that, given that it's almost impossible to make money when AWS can just take your OSS product and undercut you, Timescale is doing us all a great service by giving us a product for free and making the source available. However, does it really make sense to argue over the license is OSS or not?
The FOSS ecosystem has a monetization problem, and it's largely being funded by our collective donation of our time. I think that having options that allow us to grow the ecosystem in a sustainable way is important, even if they aren't as pure as we'd all like. Practicality usually beats purity, and "source available" is better than "closed source".
I haven't really seen any concrete dangers that come from a "source available" license, especially any that make it worse than just having no source (which is the real alternative here), so if anyone could educate me, I would be grateful.
Re: An update to the Timescale license
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It restricts customers who find that Timescale is unable or unwilling to support them in an agree-able manner from paying some one else to manage it for them. It restricts Customers from going to a Timescale-as-a-Service provider, but I don't see how it restricts the Customer from contracting to have a third-party support the Customer's Timescale installation (or to make changes to the codebase as a work-for-hire).…
As I understand it, it doesn’t restrict customers from going to a TSAAS provider, it simply means that if you want to provide TSAAS then you need to negotiate a different license from Timescale. The only restriction is that you can’t (necessarily) provide TSAAS for free. To me that’s free as in speech but not free as in beer, and is well within my personal understanding of “free software”. As the saying goes, the rig…
I don't believe Timescale is Free software or Open Source. It's proprietary source-available software. I wish all software was Free software, but I don't have the fortitude to restrict the software I use to only Free software. Timescale is "Free" enough with this license that I'd consider using it in my personal workflow, or in a business environment.