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Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

appfairness.org

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Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#501

Post by Abishek_Muthian »

This is what Epic should have done first, before going all guns on Apple.

Perhaps Epic realised that passive approach to bring attention towards Apple's tax like Spotify isn't working and so decided to approach it legally. Then again, it's hard to believe that they thought they had a chance to get a verdict in their favour.

But I don't think the attention they are trying to invoke is that of consumer, if anything it's impossible to invoke a consumer sentiment against Apple which is a aspirational buy for many and even religious investment to some. Epic seems to be targeting other app developers and so far doing a very bad job at it.

IMO, It should have worked with Facebook silently even though it has more to loose with iOS 14's privacy settings than 30% cut[1] to get Facebook, instagram, WhatsApp banned on Appstore if necessary instead of depending upon a game played by children and adults who make money from children watching them play. Just ban WhatsApp in India and see what happens.

But if Apple decides to charge tax for advertisements as well, then it could blow back for everyone who has advertising as business model. I wonder what consumers who buy for Apple's Privacy think about Apple essentially subsidising large advertising business, where as a one man developer has to pay 30% cut.

[1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24297854

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#502

Post by jariel »

gpm wrote: post #208

All the arguments about what company is most evil entirely miss the point. You don't make a decision on a specific issue based on what company you like more, you base it on who is right on the specific issue. From an ethical perspective that's what having a codified rule of laws is all about. Everyone get's the same rules no matter how much you like them. You don't arbitrarily punish people for doing things you don't…

The issue is 'anti competitiveness' not 'evil' and most arguments are pointed at that.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#503

Post by kodablah »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #202
candiddevmike wrote: post #62

Device freedom is a must. Any device should be completely controllable by the end user. There's two parts to this to me: app stores and the data collected by the devices. Users should have the freedom to install any software on their devices, period. Users should also have the freedom to stop all data collection by these devices. This applies to all electronics--video game consoles, TVs, printers, who knows what else…

The logical conclusion then is that the only device that should be allowed to be manufactured is a personal computer. Companies producing specialized hardware/software couplings does not preclude another company developing open options. I usually choose an open option for most of what I do but when it comes to some mindless gaming or my phone that I use for some sensitive matters I want them limited in their scope in…

> The logical conclusion then is that the only device that should be allowed to be manufactured is a personal computer.

Nah, the capabilities can be limited, just not artificially so. I understand there is a bunch of nuance in that statement that we can get lost in discussing, but the brief salient point is "if the manufacturer can do something to my device, then they should not add restrictions for me to try to do it also". We don't need to get lost in the what-ifs that such freedom discussions often devolve into.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#504

Post by pb7 »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #477
DivisionSol wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Er, no one is forcing any developer to make an app for iOS.

I see this type of comment a lot in these discussions on the App Store - "no one is forcing you to make an iOS app". No, no one is holding a gun to your head to make an iOS app. But you know what, people need to make money to pay the mortgage and feed their kids. If you're a programmer who has years of experience, who wants to make money in the field you have years of experience in, the field you likely enjoy doing a…

Oh no, won't someone think of the... talented and skilled white-collar worker in one of the hottest and highest paying industries of all time that can work literally anywhere? Enough with the appeals to emotion.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#505

Post by lotsofpulp »

chefandy wrote: post #482
lotsofpulp wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or bad actors can use analogies to mislead people. Or a neutral actor erroneously uses them and the result is still misinformed people. My opinion is analogies do more harm than good, at best wasting people's time, and at worst, resulting in people coming to the wrong conclusions.

All language constructs can be abused. The problem is lying, not the rhetorical mechanism.

People should be educated the rhetorical mechanism they are using doesn't do what they think it does, though. It's part of developing critical thinking skills. It would help people not get taken advantage of, too.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#506

Post by ianlevesque »

Abishek_Muthian wrote: post #501

This is what Epic should have done first, before going all guns on Apple. Perhaps Epic realised that passive approach to bring attention towards Apple's tax like Spotify isn't working and so decided to approach it legally. Then again, it's hard to believe that they thought they had a chance to get a verdict in their favour. But I don't think the attention they are trying to invoke is that of consumer, if anything it'…

I don’t think they cared too much if they got a legal ruling on Fortnite in their favor. Fortnite is a fad that everyone has heard of but that is in decline. It was probably perfect for this purpose. I suspect they didn’t expect Apple to go thermonuclear war on them and revoke dev tools access entirely (impacting unreal engine).

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#507

Post by bogwog »

AlexandrB wrote: post #86

From https://appfairness.org/our-vision/ > No app store owner should prohibit third parties from offering competing app stores on the app store owner’s platform, or discourage developers or consumers from using them. I don't disagree but does this mean Sony should allow, for example, Steam to be installed on the PS5? Or is the definition of "App Store" used here narrow and arbitrary?

> I don't disagree but does this mean Sony should allow, for example, Steam to be installed on the PS5?

That would be great for the hundreds of millions (billions?) of consumers and thousands of developers in the global game industry, but bad for exactly 3 companies: Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#508

Post by ta8964586 »

candiddevmike wrote: post #62

Device freedom is a must. Any device should be completely controllable by the end user. There's two parts to this to me: app stores and the data collected by the devices. Users should have the freedom to install any software on their devices, period. Users should also have the freedom to stop all data collection by these devices. This applies to all electronics--video game consoles, TVs, printers, who knows what else…

Genuinely curious, how would you give users "the freedom to stop all data collection by these devices" without some kind of walled garden. Is the solution something like flatpack for all apps? but then how do you make sure all apps don't just refuse to work without permission to collect data or manage to collect information without users knowing? You can't force developers to be honest about what their app does without having a means to prevent it from being installed. Specifically for apps, I can't think of a solution that has no restrictions of software installations, but wouldn't be trivially turned into an incredibly user hostile environment.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#509

Post by simion314 »

yazaddaruvala wrote: post #465
simion314 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most users, however, would have a way worse experience using their phone if they were given this option, because a non-trivial percentage of them would follow the tutorials online provided to them by malware authors to install their malware. I think Apple fans exagerrate when they say that most users are so "inexperienced" to get taken advantage off. - this number of completly inexperienced user is not proven to be…

> this number of completly inexperienced user is not proven to be as large, if you look at Android or OSX you don't see 51% of users having malware on their machine > "protecting" an unknown small number of users by limiting the rest makes no sense, what makes more sense is MONEY For creating policies 51% is a bad measure. Its inherently biased to be regressive. Setting policies at 51% disproportionately hurts the bo…

I understand your point but we don't even know if the number of this users that need protecting is even 10%. This imaginary group of people must have this properties:

- they are gullible , so bad people can trick them to ignore OS security warnings,create some extra account or security key to unlock the device (Apple can do it hard enough it must not be just 1 click)

- at the same time this users are not that gullible to paste their credit card in random websites or on Apple approved chat messages

- at the same time this users can be trusted with the app permissions for files,contacts, camera, location

For me if I intersect all this sets of users I get void and your argument should be that everything should be locked down, no permissions allowed for this users, there should only Apple approved websites, apple approved contacts, Apple should scan your messages not to send your card details or do stupid things. This people should use an iOS version made for children and adults could use the unlocked version.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#510

Post by acomjean »

makerofthings wrote: post #391
acomjean wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you like having only 1 app store for convince. I get that. But there is an legitimate argument to be made by those who do want it. The lack of competition is probably hurting you too, in the form of higher prices for everything. If there were alternatives you wouldn't be forecd to use them. What if apple starts trying to monetize in ways you don't like? (like trying even more aggressively to get appleTV/ AppleMusi…

I like that Apple forces app developers to use a system that is convenient and safe for me as the device owner. I don't think it would be a case of "ignore the alternatives", I expect many apps would abandon apple to save a few dollars and I would have to put my credit card into half the apps I currently use. I buy the phone and the apps for my benefit, not the benefit of Epic. I have to be honest, I subscribe to a l…

Wouldn't it be nice to use old iPhones for tinkering instead? the hardware is pretty amazing.

I guess I've decided the last few years to forsake some safety/connivance to ensure the right to use my hardware the way I want. Its harder. I have a linux notebook which is great, but requires a little more attention.

As apple moves more into services its become less of a systems company, I'm not completely trusting of them.

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