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Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

appfairness.org

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Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#261

Post by joshstrange »

Dahoon wrote: post #172
burlesona wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it means Sony has to add Steam to PS5 or else it is narrow and arbitrary. To me the iPhone is a console, end of story. If you like the console experience, it’s a great device. If you don’t, there are a million android and even alternative OS based phones out there which are more like a PC. If you want your phone to be a PC, you should do what most people around the world do and buy one of those. Instead we have…

No it does not. Sony isn't like Apple. I can freely buy things in / for PlayStation games with my credit card. Not so in iOS apps. There all payment goes through Apple, taking an additional 30% cut above the 30% cut of the app price. Neither Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo does this.

This is not true, they all take a cut, please provide proof of an app/game on one of these platforms not taking a cut if you are going to make a claim like that. It's ~30% but it can vary.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#262

Post by exBarrelSpoiler »

bzb5 wrote: post #228
echelon wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your perspective makes me sad. I'm honestly depressed because people rush to defend bad behavior of their favorite monopoly. Like, physically holding back tears. Serious. What is wrong with us? Our computers and technology have been locked down by anti-competitive juggernauts. Our legislators have written laws that cede more of our liberties and privacy. This modern internet sucks so much and I want to go back to whe…

> Like, physically holding back tears. Serious. Time to step away from the computer, miss. Regarding the rest of your comment: sorry to say this but the internet is freer now than 10 years ago. More people are online talking and collaborating with each other in new and more interesting ways. There’s more and better access to culture more than there’s ever been.

You just contradicted yourself

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24569102

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#263

Post by makerofthings »

As a consumer, I really like how the AppStore works and I buy iPhones for me and for my family specifically because there is only one store and one way of subscribing and one way of using in-app purchases. I really, really hope Apple win this. I just don't want to have to deal with the possibility that every app is going to have its own in-app-purchase dark patterns.

If everyone that wants to be able to side-load alternate app-stores could move to Android land and leave iOS alone, that would be great.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#264

Post by granzymes »

jpambrun wrote: post #194
kemiller wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No... many people actually appreciate the walled garden as consumers.

Allowing other stores doesn't mean you have to use them. You could still have your curated experience on the Apple store. Why do you want to impose your views on others?

How much do you want to bet that Epic and Spotify would pull their apps from the App Store or limit the features of their apps on the App Store in order to force people to their preferred platform?

This isn't even hypothetical. Spotify already refuses to add features to the Apple Watch.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#265

Post by lostgame »

dragonwriter wrote: post #144
lostgame wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic; in particular, is just handling this situation laughably at best. I can't imagine taking someone to court over my own intentionally sneaky violation of a company's set of rules. The conversation about Apple's 30% is a valid one. Epic is, intentionally, at this point; taking a sledgehammer to any validity that conversation had. The way Epic handled this situation was with a maturity level of a 6-year-old kid yel…

> Epic; in particular, is just handling this situation laughably at best. I can't imagine taking someone to court over my own intentionally sneaky violation of a company's set of rules. There's nothing laughable about having a layered strategy of “try not to get caught, and, in case you are caught, have a backup argument that enforcement of the rules is illegal in any case.”

I believe it doesn't uphold the 'spirit' of the law. It's sneaky/sneaking. They could've had a discussion with Apple, or gone to court about it; ahead of time. What they did was sneaking around; plain and simple, and Apple just responded the way they would to any app that suddenly activated a secret backdoor that would violate their terms and conditions.

They invalidated their own potential for legal standing by intentionally sneaking around instead of working through the system like, for instance, LGTBQ+ people (I'm lesbian) did. If something is an injustice; you don't just, e.g. walk into a church and try to get married in a state or country that forbids it. You'll be prosecuted or killed. Doesn't matter that it's not fair.

Apple's stance isn't as black/white, cut/dry as gay rights. But the point is, these guys took the absolutely wrong approach, have made themselves look like fools, and taken away power from people taking the time to properly (e.g. not intentionally sneaking around, which a backdoor switch to violate their terms and conditions is, by definition) try to move through the legal system and make these changes.

All Epic has done is made that harder for real champions of Justice to approach in the future. It's the stuff conspiracy theories are made of. They're not standing for rights. They're standing for profits. Nobody's falling for it, especially not the judges.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#266

Post by mbesto »

echelon wrote: post #167
temp667 wrote: post #97

Haha - this illustrates WHY the app store is so popular. You've got Match.com (owns tinder). Repeat FTC offender (most scammmers never get the FTC slap on the wrist). "Match Group also allegedly makes it too difficult to cancel a subscription through “confusing and cumbersome cancellation practices.” The FTC claims users must click through two pages of survey questions and cites a 2015 internal presentation that note…

Your perspective makes me sad. I'm honestly depressed because people rush to defend bad behavior of their favorite monopoly. Like, physically holding back tears. Serious. What is wrong with us? Our computers and technology have been locked down by anti-competitive juggernauts. Our legislators have written laws that cede more of our liberties and privacy. This modern internet sucks so much and I want to go back to whe…

> I'm honestly depressed because people rush to defend bad behavior of their favorite monopoly.

In favor of supporting a cartel who will essentially have the same power? I don't think the OP was defending Apple, just that the antagonist is likely just as awful.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#267

Post by 52-6F-62 »

Floegipoky wrote: post #140
zepto wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does apple not allow outside it’s platform? How would they even control that?

There is nothing _but_ their platform- from the hardware, to OS, to app store, they're arguing that their platform encompasses an entire vertically-integrated business model. Microsoft got nailed for shipping their web browser with their OS (which users could easily replace), but it's fine for Apple to control all software a user can install? Take a monopoly and call it a platform, and it's fine? No. I have little lo…

> users having more control over the technology they depend on.

Bit of a chicken/egg problem there isn't it?

I bought the iOS device and depend on it being as locked down as it is—that's why I bought it.

I wasn't force to choose an iOS device for any reason. If I depended on more openness I could have gone with an Android or other device.

Do I depend on having a phone? Yes. Does it matter which one? No—the choice is there.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#268

Post by mthoms »

foota wrote: post #174
AlexandrB wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From https://appfairness.org/issues/30-app-tax/ > For most purchases made within its App Store, Apple takes 30% of the purchase price. No other transaction fee — in any industry — comes close. This is a straight-up lie and Epic, being in the gaming industry, knows it. Steam takes the same 30% (unless you're huge) and is Epic's direct competitor on PC. Not to mention every other gaming platform[1]. [1] https://www.ign…

It might be that steam doesn't consider it a transaction fee? (Which is weasley wording imo)

I generally support the "fight" against the Apple tax but I'd have to agree that this is grossly misleading.

Apple is doing much more than providing transaction services in exchange for their cut.

Whether or not what they do is actually worth 30% is up for debate (IMHO), but it's dishonest to say that that their cut is merely a "transaction fee".

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#269

Post by sithlord »

Dahoon wrote: post #172
burlesona wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it means Sony has to add Steam to PS5 or else it is narrow and arbitrary. To me the iPhone is a console, end of story. If you like the console experience, it’s a great device. If you don’t, there are a million android and even alternative OS based phones out there which are more like a PC. If you want your phone to be a PC, you should do what most people around the world do and buy one of those. Instead we have…

No it does not. Sony isn't like Apple. I can freely buy things in / for PlayStation games with my credit card. Not so in iOS apps. There all payment goes through Apple, taking an additional 30% cut above the 30% cut of the app price. Neither Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo does this.

pretty sure if you buy an item (game, controller, etc) FOR a playstation, they are paying sony a royalty to produce that item.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#270

Post by Udik »

tmotwu wrote: post #225
nicetryguy wrote: post #75

I'm surprised at all of the negativity here. The changes proposed would be great for developers, even if (most) of the companies involved are shady, their reasons are selfish, and the obvious "astroturfiness" of the website is laughably dissonant and reeks like a dirty think tank that hasn't been cleaned in months. Apple has no qualms about absolutely screwing developers historically. I'm happy to see some pushback.

Not exactly sure if it's astroturfing, but there's definitely been a lot of non-devs commenting on this issue. You can see this when they go off on some security tangent while the App Store is in fact host to thousands of malware in disguise. They trust that Apple is manually reviewing each and every App for security holes, that's why the App Store exists in the first place and totally why there's a 30% toll. I'm sta…

Security and privacy are just like those 200 metres waterproof watches they were selling in the '80s. Most people who bought them hardly went deeper than their bathtub.

You buy the concept, and caring about the expensive details is a nice signal of affluence and self-esteem (I deserve this much security & privacy).

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