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Leak reveals $2T of possibly corrupt US financial activity

theguardian.com

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Re: Leak reveals $2T of possibly corrupt US financial activity

#71

Post by ceejayoz »

safog wrote: post #70
sharkweek wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former bank teller let me tell you all the brilliant ways people would try to get around this. * Depositing $9,999 cash (yeah, still gonna report that) * Depositing random X,000 cash increments across multiple transactions (yeah, still going to report that) * Making cash deposits across multiple locations in the same day/week (as if the computer didn’t alert us to multiple cash deposits)

Curious - how do people who work cash jobs handle this or if your system flags them. I pay our cleaner say $100 in cash. Pretty sure they don't report that to the IRS or pay taxes on it. What happens if they deposit say 2-3k / mo spread across several days? (~30k / yr in total?)

> What happens if they deposit say 2-3k / mo spread across several days?

Nothing? Nowhere near the thresholds.

Re: Leak reveals $2T of possibly corrupt US financial activity

#72

Post by starkred »

sharkweek wrote: post #65
simon1ltd wrote: post #51

It might help if anyone paid attention to what a SAR IS: https://www.occ.treas.gov/topics/supervision-and-examination... Keep records of cash purchases of negotiable instruments, File reports of cash transactions exceeding $10,000 (daily aggregate amount), and Report suspicious activity that might signal criminal activity (e.g., money laundering, tax evasion) If you do more than $10,000 in cash business/transactions,…

As a former bank teller let me tell you all the brilliant ways people would try to get around this. * Depositing $9,999 cash (yeah, still gonna report that) * Depositing random X,000 cash increments across multiple transactions (yeah, still going to report that) * Making cash deposits across multiple locations in the same day/week (as if the computer didn’t alert us to multiple cash deposits)

You've crushed the dreams of a lot of people who get their tax tips from anonymous internet posters.

"Deposit $9,999 to fool the IRS" is up there with "Consult with top divorce lawyers to keep them from representing you spouse" in the Hall of Bad Legal Advice.

Re: Leak reveals $2T of possibly corrupt US financial activity

#73

Post by vmception »

defterGoose wrote: post #46
vmception wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SARs are just spam. There is nothing to deal with. Its an odd name for a receipt that gets printed at the bank's discretion.

Can I just ask...WTAF are you talking about? Because you sound like a troll.

That a suspicious activity report is not indication of a crime, anything suspicious, and a lot of them get filed many times automatically

Re: Leak reveals $2T of possibly corrupt US financial activity

#74

Post by raincom »

safog wrote: post #70
sharkweek wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former bank teller let me tell you all the brilliant ways people would try to get around this. * Depositing $9,999 cash (yeah, still gonna report that) * Depositing random X,000 cash increments across multiple transactions (yeah, still going to report that) * Making cash deposits across multiple locations in the same day/week (as if the computer didn’t alert us to multiple cash deposits)

Curious - how do people who work cash jobs handle this or if your system flags them. I pay our cleaner say $100 in cash. Pretty sure they don't report that to the IRS or pay taxes on it. What happens if they deposit say 2-3k / mo spread across several days? (~30k / yr in total?)

Their AML systems will flag this activity as suspicious, and someone in the back office file a SAR. Think of the financial circuit as closed and traceable. Any untraceable entries and exits into this circuit needs CTRs and SARs.

Untraceable entries/exits: cash, money orders, cashier checks, wire transfers, etc.

Re: Leak reveals $2T of possibly corrupt US financial activity

#75

Post by ceejayoz »

gruez wrote: post #67
sharkweek wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former bank teller let me tell you all the brilliant ways people would try to get around this. * Depositing $9,999 cash (yeah, still gonna report that) * Depositing random X,000 cash increments across multiple transactions (yeah, still going to report that) * Making cash deposits across multiple locations in the same day/week (as if the computer didn’t alert us to multiple cash deposits)

So if I want to get around it all I need to do is * make sure the deposits are under $9000, but also not some amount that's "suspicious" like $8,999 * make sure the deposits happen on a regular interval * make sure the deposits are at the same branch I also suspect banks don't share information to generate SAR (eg. a deposit of $15,000 at one bank would generate a SAR, but a deposit of $7,500 at two banks on the same…

Nothing says the bank can't go "hey this guy deposited $90k in cash this year". They may ask you where you're getting it; if you own a bunch of vending machines, you're probably fine. If your answers are evasive or don't make sense, you might be getting a SAR.

$10k is just the automatic threshold for a CTR. A $1 transaction could cause a SAR to be filed, if there was a reason for the bank to be suspicious of it.

Re: Leak reveals $2T of possibly corrupt US financial activity

#76

Post by ceejayoz »

ericd wrote: post #64
mabbo wrote: post #53

> The leak focuses on more than 2,000 suspicious activity reports (SARs) filed with the US government’s Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN). I think it's important to get the right mindset on what these are before we cry foul. All banks will report 'large' transactions to their country's Financial Intelligence bureau. In the US, that's FINCEN. In Canada, that's FINTRAC, where I interned way back in 2006. He…

So anyone who's ever bought a house in the US or Canada has had an SAR about them?

If you did it with a suitcase full of cash, probably.

Re: Leak reveals $2T of possibly corrupt US financial activity

#77

Post by luckylion »

mabbo wrote: post #53

> The leak focuses on more than 2,000 suspicious activity reports (SARs) filed with the US government’s Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN). I think it's important to get the right mindset on what these are before we cry foul. All banks will report 'large' transactions to their country's Financial Intelligence bureau. In the US, that's FINCEN. In Canada, that's FINTRAC, where I interned way back in 2006. He…

If "more than 2000" SARs are totaling $2tn, I don't think there's a lot of "Grandma Jones got a new bed and finally decided to trust the bank with her $11k secret savings".

> It's up to the US FINCEN to decide if a crime took place and to handle it accordingly. You decide if you trust them or not, but that is their role in this.

Who watches the watchmen?

Re: Leak reveals $2T of possibly corrupt US financial activity

#78

Post by Dahoon »

sailfast wrote: post #26
syspec wrote: post #4

> In a statement released earlier this month FinCEN condemned the disclosure of the leaked documents and said it had referred the matter to the US Department of Justice. > “The Financial Crimes Enforcement Network is aware that various media outlets intend to publish a series of articles based on unlawfully disclosed suspicious activity reports (SARs), as well as other sensitive government documents, from several yea…

Well, yeah. The leaker signed an NDA. You of course take the risk that you will be punished by the NDA’s consequences that you sign unless you are using whistleblower statutes. That’s the whole point of the NDA. Edit: you don’t publish your company’s proprietary source code and then expect you just walk away right? You’d be sued into oblivion. It’s important that people abide by their agreements. Whistleblower statut…

This is just BS. Hiding a crime behind an NDA doesn't mean it should be illegal to tell about that crime.

Re: Leak reveals $2T of possibly corrupt US financial activity

#79

Post by defterGoose »

vmception wrote: post #61
defterGoose wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Crimes don't matter" "Democracy doesn't matter" "Nothing matters" "You should just accept it" Does that sum it up pretty well? You seem to have a pretty vested interest in this being ignored if judged by the volume of similar comments you've left in this thread.

I have a general interest in people understanding what this is. A suspicious activity report is not about a crime, it isn't about anything being suspected of a crime or even actually suspicious. SARs are an ill thought compliance nuance created by Congress 50 years ago with a ridiculous name. The headline even has a vested interested in covering its own ass with the wording "possibly corrupt" because their own legal…

So news organizations have an interest in having their stories heard? Film at 11.

TFA literally makes no accusations, it is simply stating the facts. Manafort was convicted of money laundering and fraud, and the fact that many of these reports were filed on him makes it seem like the system is working as intended. Similarly, Mogilevich is wanted by the FBI. Maybe that should mean there's a reason for banks to stop doing business with him?

No one here is arguing that banks should be required to stop doing business with anyone who triggers one of these reports. The point is that based on retrospect, they haven't been doing a good job of operating on the information they have, so maybe it's time to actually give such a law teeth.

Re: Leak reveals $2T of possibly corrupt US financial activity

#80

Post by nelaboras »

ceejayoz wrote: post #75
gruez wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if I want to get around it all I need to do is * make sure the deposits are under $9000, but also not some amount that's "suspicious" like $8,999 * make sure the deposits happen on a regular interval * make sure the deposits are at the same branch I also suspect banks don't share information to generate SAR (eg. a deposit of $15,000 at one bank would generate a SAR, but a deposit of $7,500 at two banks on the same…

Nothing says the bank can't go "hey this guy deposited $90k in cash this year". They may ask you where you're getting it; if you own a bunch of vending machines, you're probably fine. If your answers are evasive or don't make sense, you might be getting a SAR. $10k is just the automatic threshold for a CTR. A $1 transaction could cause a SAR to be filed, if there was a reason for the bank to be suspicious of it.

That's why any real criminal activity will have a front. Chinese takeaway, vending machines, flower or newspaper vendor, second hand shop, ..
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