Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes • Hacker News Board

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#181

Post by freedomben » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 4:13 PM UTC

flenserboy wrote: post #130

sneak wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If users didn’t want these things, users wouldn’t buy them. For the vast majority of people, and iPhone is way, way better than a computer that can run any app, precisely because it can’t run any app they click on. I’m a hacker, so I would love to be able to install any software I want on my iPhone, and introspect it in other ways. Most users, however, would have a way worse experience using their phone if they were…

Apple's advertising is built on security and privacy — allowing other App Stores on their system would only open up users to invasive tracking & attacks. I want my desktop system to be open as can be; I'm perfectly happy with my phone being (somewhat) locked down. That said, Apple could allow users to choose to install other App Stores on their devices, but at the cost of their devices being considered hopelessly com…

> Apple's advertising is built on security and privacy — allowing other App Stores on their system would only open up users to invasive tracking & attacks.

But why? If sideloading requires explicit user action and acknowledgment of danger, why would this affect their brand of safety and privacy in any way? The users who want a safe controlled environment can easily choose to stay in that environment. I just do not understand this argument.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#182

Post by user5994461 » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 4:13 PM UTC

temp667 wrote: post #97

Haha - this illustrates WHY the app store is so popular. You've got Match.com (owns tinder). Repeat FTC offender (most scammmers never get the FTC slap on the wrist). "Match Group also allegedly makes it too difficult to cancel a subscription through “confusing and cumbersome cancellation practices.” The FTC claims users must click through two pages of survey questions and cites a 2015 internal presentation that note…

For reference, all of these practices are abusive and will void the subscription contract in civil law (Europe). Ask for a refund and perform a charge back if they don't refund.

I wrote a detailed article about it, what every developer should know about software subscriptions and civil law: https://thehftguy.com/2020/09/08/what-every-developer-should...

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#183

Post by kevincox » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 4:13 PM UTC

izacus wrote: post #116

temp667 wrote: post #97

Haha - this illustrates WHY the app store is so popular. You've got Match.com (owns tinder). Repeat FTC offender (most scammmers never get the FTC slap on the wrist). "Match Group also allegedly makes it too difficult to cancel a subscription through “confusing and cumbersome cancellation practices.” The FTC claims users must click through two pages of survey questions and cites a 2015 internal presentation that note…

Interesting how there's so many posts here attacking the companies behind the action (ad hominem style) by specifying actions that have nothing to do with the abuses Apple and AppStore do. Is this targeted?

It seems that the post is highlighting how the subscription and refund options of these companies provide a far worse experience than the Apple App Store which is a legitimate concern for why providing a work around can lead to worse user experiences if these companies provide their app via a different chancel that doesn't enforce certain UX requirements.

For that reason the comment does seem helpful and relevant.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#184

Post by DevKoala » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 4:13 PM UTC

eertami wrote: post #171

kemiller wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No... many people actually appreciate the walled garden as consumers.

Sure, but it's of course surprising such people would be present on HN.

Why? As a developer it sounds like a nightmare, but as a costumer, I like it. It makes for a great experience.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#185

Post by zhobbs » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 4:14 PM UTC

AlexandrB wrote: post #86

From https://appfairness.org/our-vision/ > No app store owner should prohibit third parties from offering competing app stores on the app store owner’s platform, or discourage developers or consumers from using them. I don't disagree but does this mean Sony should allow, for example, Steam to be installed on the PS5? Or is the definition of "App Store" used here narrow and arbitrary?

Maybe it should be something like, "if your platform doesn't allow side loading of other apps, or other app stores, then the store on that platform can take no more than X% commission on sales"

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#186

Post by Razengan » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 4:14 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #159

temp667 wrote: post #97

Haha - this illustrates WHY the app store is so popular. You've got Match.com (owns tinder). Repeat FTC offender (most scammmers never get the FTC slap on the wrist). "Match Group also allegedly makes it too difficult to cancel a subscription through “confusing and cumbersome cancellation practices.” The FTC claims users must click through two pages of survey questions and cites a 2015 internal presentation that note…

> this illustrates WHY the app store is so popular No it doesn't. The app store is "popular" because Apple users don't have a choice. It's "popular" because they're forced to use it. I'm neither defending it or criticizing it... but let's not pretend like consumers are choosing the app store. Users in general are choosing Apple vs Android primarily for reasons that have nothing to do with an app store (i.e. hardware,…

> Apple users don't have a choice. It's "popular" because they're forced to use it.

Do you have a minute to talk about our Lord and Savior, Android?

People do choose iPhones or Androids based on what apps they know they can run.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#187

Post by notsureaboutpg » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 4:14 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #159

temp667 wrote: post #97

Haha - this illustrates WHY the app store is so popular. You've got Match.com (owns tinder). Repeat FTC offender (most scammmers never get the FTC slap on the wrist). "Match Group also allegedly makes it too difficult to cancel a subscription through “confusing and cumbersome cancellation practices.” The FTC claims users must click through two pages of survey questions and cites a 2015 internal presentation that note…

> this illustrates WHY the app store is so popular No it doesn't. The app store is "popular" because Apple users don't have a choice. It's "popular" because they're forced to use it. I'm neither defending it or criticizing it... but let's not pretend like consumers are choosing the app store. Users in general are choosing Apple vs Android primarily for reasons that have nothing to do with an app store (i.e. hardware,…

Yep, if you spent any time with non-technical users you'd know a good amount of them pick Apple because they want their messages to show up as blue in their friends' iMessage and not green. They have no idea how Match.com subscriptions work and don't care about Spotify ripping off musicians.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#188

Post by izacus » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 4:14 PM UTC

burlesona wrote: post #114

AlexandrB wrote: post #86

From https://appfairness.org/our-vision/ > No app store owner should prohibit third parties from offering competing app stores on the app store owner’s platform, or discourage developers or consumers from using them. I don't disagree but does this mean Sony should allow, for example, Steam to be installed on the PS5? Or is the definition of "App Store" used here narrow and arbitrary?

Yes, it means Sony has to add Steam to PS5 or else it is narrow and arbitrary. To me the iPhone is a console, end of story. If you like the console experience, it’s a great device. If you don’t, there are a million android and even alternative OS based phones out there which are more like a PC. If you want your phone to be a PC, you should do what most people around the world do and buy one of those. Instead we have…

> To me the iPhone is a console, end of story.

This would be true if iPhone would be only a toy. But it's also the only source of person-to-person communication, source of news and primary computing device for large part of USA population.

And that makes it very different from a PS5. By market share. By use. By impact. And IMPACT is what we're measuring here.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#189

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 4:14 PM UTC

ilikehurdles wrote: post #180

echelon wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your perspective makes me sad. I'm honestly depressed because people rush to defend bad behavior of their favorite monopoly. Like, physically holding back tears. Serious. What is wrong with us? Our computers and technology have been locked down by anti-competitive juggernauts. Our legislators have written laws that cede more of our liberties and privacy. This modern internet sucks so much and I want to go back to whe…

> I want a world where we're free to install whatever we want on our devices or distribute our hard work to others without having to implement it 5 different ways. I do too, but your appeal to emotion is off-topic. This has nothing to do with the lawsuit. None of these companies want that, nor are they working toward that. Epic and Spotify are pushing their own walled gardens, they just want to do it with a bigger pr…

Basecamp and Tile want walled gardens?

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#190

Post by fhood » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 4:14 PM UTC

Dahoon wrote: post #157

AlexandrB wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From https://appfairness.org/issues/30-app-tax/ > For most purchases made within its App Store, Apple takes 30% of the purchase price. No other transaction fee — in any industry — comes close. This is a straight-up lie and Epic, being in the gaming industry, knows it. Steam takes the same 30% (unless you're huge) and is Epic's direct competitor on PC. Not to mention every other gaming platform[1]. [1] https://www.ign…

It isn't a lie. Steam takes a cut too yes, but Apple takes a cut after that 30% you mention. You don't pay 30% to Steam from in-app purchases. No one except Apple force you to use its payment system and take an additional 30% cut after the first 30% cut of the app price. Unless you are a small indie developer you end up paying way more to Apple than any other platform.

I don't think this is true. I don't own that many games on steam that offer in-app purchases, but monster hunter's redirect you to the steam storefront, and steam definitely takes their cut of those.