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The Cement of Society Is...

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Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#131

Post by chownie »

scottlocklin wrote: post #128
wolfram74 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt conservatives feel like liberals believe in nothing but power, and I'm sure the left has a few marks against it on that count. But I'd appreciate a few examples of them behaving in such a manner as knowingly lying about how deadly a disease is and then having large crowded in door events shortly afterwards[0]. It's easy to manufacture a narative that has the left drinking the blood of babies, but how mu…

>I'd appreciate a few examples of them behaving in such a manner as knowingly lying about how deadly a disease is and then having large crowded .... Lol are you shitting me? Didn't you notice the mobs of leftist chuckleheads, erm, I mean "anti-racism activists" burning the cities down over the last couple of months, complete with excuses for why it's not REALLY a covid transmission problem, and, like business owners…

Why did you ellipse before the word "indoors"?

> The fact of the matter is, the right was more correct than the left when it comes to Covid; it's mostly a nothingburger unless you're over 70. Even the CDC says so at this point[0].

This is assuming that the only negative outcome of COVID is death, but that isn't the case.

People come out of COVID with long term health complications such as lung scarring which may affect them for the rest of their lives. We don't have good data on the rates of injury in those who recover yet.

Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#132

Post by adrianN »

watwut wrote: post #65
AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alas, claiming that your opponent discusses things in bad faith is often the simplest way to get the upper hand.

There is however such thing as bad faith. Yes, the claim that opponent argues in bad faith itself can be don in bad faith. But, when the discussion is actually in bad faith, you wont solve the issue by pretending to yourself that it was in good faith.

Discussing, especially online or in politics, is often not for convincing your conversation partner, but for convincing the silent readers. I feel like this objective is more easily reached if you always assume good faith arguments.

Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#133

Post by fnord123 »

jboynyc wrote: post #68

As a sociologist, I can't help but notice some glaring absences. Allow me to amend: ...gift-giving (Mauss, 1925): Giving gifts creates an obligation to reciprocate, tying people together in bonds of mutual obligation. ...collective effervescence (Durkheim, 1912): People engaging in repeated ritual action which aligns their focus on a common object (Erving Goffman called this "interaction ritual") and who become attun…

> tying people together

Concrete is not known for it's tensile strength.

My contribution in image form:

https://creativesystemsthinking.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/...

Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#135

Post by wolfram74 »

scottlocklin wrote: post #128
wolfram74 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt conservatives feel like liberals believe in nothing but power, and I'm sure the left has a few marks against it on that count. But I'd appreciate a few examples of them behaving in such a manner as knowingly lying about how deadly a disease is and then having large crowded in door events shortly afterwards[0]. It's easy to manufacture a narative that has the left drinking the blood of babies, but how mu…

>I'd appreciate a few examples of them behaving in such a manner as knowingly lying about how deadly a disease is and then having large crowded .... Lol are you shitting me? Didn't you notice the mobs of leftist chuckleheads, erm, I mean "anti-racism activists" burning the cities down over the last couple of months, complete with excuses for why it's not REALLY a covid transmission problem, and, like business owners…

To be clear, are you arguing that malfeasance in the highest elected offices in the land is excusable because the oppositions protests aren't 100% peaceful?

Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#136

Post by 082349872349872 »

fnord123 wrote: post #133
jboynyc wrote: post #68

As a sociologist, I can't help but notice some glaring absences. Allow me to amend: ...gift-giving (Mauss, 1925): Giving gifts creates an obligation to reciprocate, tying people together in bonds of mutual obligation. ...collective effervescence (Durkheim, 1912): People engaging in repeated ritual action which aligns their focus on a common object (Erving Goffman called this "interaction ritual") and who become attun…

> tying people together Concrete is not known for it's tensile strength. My contribution in image form: https://creativesystemsthinking.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/...

That's a very compressive[1] structure. Failures appear to be rapid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gXHqKpg__A&t=25

Looks like most of the aggregate is also sheared?

As regards the first observation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24574471

[1] are there any famous tensile structures beyond Skylon (1951)?

Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#137

Post by kgwxd »

rtkwe wrote: post #3

More and more I think a good answer for this is something along the lines of "...a shared basic reality of facts." Especially lately in the US it seems like there's a schism in the basic understanding of what's happening with stuff like Coronavirus, effects of systematic racism past and present, climate change, etc.

That would be a great answer if only there weren't a shit ton a people refusing to accept reality and recognize actual facts.

Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#138

Post by NortySpock »

throwaways885 wrote: post #116
rtkwe wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, of course, I never thought about the perception from the other side. Yes I know that, I believe the things I do though because I either think they're correct, they should be correct, or I hope they'll be right some day, I think I've considered and synthesized information from various sources not just one or a small few. I get that my whole world view is a conglomeration of what I was taught, when I grew up, what…

> I get that my whole world view is a conglomeration of what I was taught, when I grew up, what I've read etc. but if I didn't think I was at least partially right why would I believe it. Everyone believes this. It becomes dangerous when we start assuming these are the correct beliefs. > I don't know how to bridge the conceptual gap between the ideological poles here. Just talk to conservatives, in my experience they…

And finding common ground is still easy: "It's bad/unfortunate when police kill people", "It would be good if we could feed and clothe the homeless", "It would be good if more people had access to healthcare" are statements that most people will agree with.

"What laws, mechanisms and tools do we use to achieve those goals?" and "How do we pay for it?" -- that's where you run into differing opinions.

Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#139

Post by AlexTWithBeard »

bleepblorp wrote: post #76
bobthechef wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize that the "other side" has the same EXACT perception of you, right? It would be nice if people were a bit more skeptical of their preferred news outlets and opinion makers. What I see instead is the continuing existence of the same bubble that led to the shock and surprise at Trump's election. An absolute refusal or inability to consider other views, an inability to interpret events in historical contex…

Conservative perceptions of their opponents have very little basis in reality as most of what conservatives perceive regarding their opponents is projection intended to deflect from their own misbehavior. Conservative messaging is driven almost exclusively by fabricated outrage for which there is no non-conservative equivalent; non-conservative messaging is driven by outrage over actual conservative behavior. Non-con…

At first I downvoted you.

Then I realized that this is a stupid way to have a discussion, so here's my reply instead.

I would love to see a specific example of "conservative fabricated outrage". Not because I haven't seen any in my life, but to align our understandings of the fabricated outage.

The most recent one is probably that with a new supreme court judge nomination. Here's what I managed to find out:

- according to [1] rejecting a supreme court nominee from the opposite party is a relatively rare, but not completely outstanding event. Last time (ignoring current senate) it happened when Reagan nominated Bork in 1987.

- in "good olde times" senate minority could use filibuster to block the unacceptable nominee. This option has been eliminated by Harry Reid in 2013. All McConnell did was to keep the status quo.

- current situation is in no way unique: over the history of USA 29 times supreme court judges were nominated in election year. In case of aligned senate 17 nominations out of 19 were confirmed. In case of a misaligned senate 2 out of 10 nominations were confirmed.

- in 2016 dems have brought up some very good arguments to why having just 8 judges is problematic and why the president should nominate a judge as soon as possible (even in election year). I personally think these arguments were exceptionally reasonable and they still hold in 2020: the president should indeed nominate a judge as soon as possible

Your turn?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nominations_to_the_Sup...

Re: The Cement of Society Is...

#140

Post by atomi »

jboynyc wrote: post #68

As a sociologist, I can't help but notice some glaring absences. Allow me to amend: ...gift-giving (Mauss, 1925): Giving gifts creates an obligation to reciprocate, tying people together in bonds of mutual obligation. ...collective effervescence (Durkheim, 1912): People engaging in repeated ritual action which aligns their focus on a common object (Erving Goffman called this "interaction ritual") and who become attun…

Also, social contract (Hobbes and Locke)
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