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ZEROe: Hydrogen-hybrid aircraft concept

airbus.com

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Re: ZEROe: Hydrogen-hybrid aircraft concept

#81

Post by Qwertious »

jabl wrote: post #54
gus_massa wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Organic reactions to produce complex molecules have an horrible efficiency. (For example, photosynthesis in plants has a 1% or 2% of efficiency.) Perhaps the efficiency to produce methane is not so bad, but a chain with 6 or 7 carbons like gasoline is very complicated. It is not equivalent if they are aligned or they form a ramified structure like a tree, and it is very difficult to choose which one they will form un…

> Perhaps the efficiency to produce methane is not so bad, but a chain with 6 or 7 carbons like gasoline is very complicated. The Fischer-Tropsch process is almost a hundred years old, and has been used on an industrial scale. E.g. Nazi Germany used it to produce a non-trivial fraction of their liquid fuels during WWII. Similarly South Africa used it during Apartheid. Now FT itself is better suited for producing most…

"The Fischer-Tropsch process is almost a hundred years old, and has been used on an industrial scale. E.g. Nazi Germany used it to produce a non-trivial fraction of their liquid fuels during WWII."

I know it's not an argument against, but the Nazis lost WW2 because they ran out of oil. They invaded Russia at the last moment they could before they wouldn't have the oil to invade, and when they invaded they made a beeline for Russia's oil fields.

They were desperate for fuel from anywhere, because their tanks are useless and they either have to fight to the death wherever their tanks run out of fuel, or abandon their tanks.

...also, the main non-fossil fuel the nazis used was probably hay. For their horses. It's just a super weird example.

Re: ZEROe: Hydrogen-hybrid aircraft concept

#82

Post by largolagrande »

jakozaur wrote: post #76

Would not be easier to produce synthetic kerosene fuel from captured CO2 and hydrogen. The process is straightforward: 1. A lot of cheap solar energy, from the best location. 2. Electrolyse to produce hydrogen. 3. Capture CO2. Either from air or from carbon intensive processes (e.g. producing cement). 4. Use Sabatier reaction to bond CO2 and hydrogen to produce carbohydrate fuel. 5. Since we use same amount of CO2 to…

> A lot of cheap solar energy, from the best location.

I recommend that you watch the "Planet of the Humans" documentary to understand why there is no cheap solar energy, no so-called "green" energies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk11vI-7czE

So there will never be any "green" planes, no matter if they use hydrogen or kerosen. Since the minimum required amount of energy to fly from point A to point B with N passengers will always be the same.

Re: ZEROe: Hydrogen-hybrid aircraft concept

#84

Post by dathinab »

One problem with hydrogen powered air plannes (which I know from some older articles I had read airbus is aware of) is that emitting small water droplets in the higher atmosphere is actually problematic.

I have no good sources but don't articles I have read said it's potentially worse then the CO2 emission of current air plainness.

So additional care must be taken to not condense the water from the hydrogen burning into larger potions/prices before emitting it.

Re: ZEROe: Hydrogen-hybrid aircraft concept

#86

Post by dathinab »

dcustodio wrote: post #72
xoa wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes sense. I guess the questions would be whether the material science can really allow us to make use of that, and how the end-to-end efficiency weights against the infrastructure/engineering greenfield costs that synthetic fuels avoid. Being able to just keep using all existing engines/storage/distribution knowledge we already have is a major economic advantage. Electric will cover most land based transporta…

Don't forget that wind turbines still produce at night when there is less demand. So either you use that power to pump water upstream (if you have dams) or you can use it to produce Hydrogen.

There is also work underway on solar cells which directly produce hydrogen instead of electricity.

Re: ZEROe: Hydrogen-hybrid aircraft concept

#87

Post by Qwertious »

hannob wrote: post #61
xoa wrote: post #4

I'll admit I really don't get the fascination with hydrogen as an energy storage medium. It has to be manufactured, so how green it is depends on whatever the power input is coming from. It's not any inherently greener then synthetic hydrocarbon production, which can be produced from atmospheric carbon for zero net carbon impact, and of course has no sulfur or aromatics. It also works fine with existing engineering.…

> So why not just do full manufacture of regular fuel? Always fascinating when people use "just" in sentences where they propose something that hasn't been done before (at least not at any scale that would matter) and that is a huge challenge. As for the reason, my understading is that producing fuels from electricity is just very inefficient. You still use hydrogen as the first step and then add other steps to produ…

"Just" is a great example of a word carrying more subtext than text. "It's just a stabbing."

Re: ZEROe: Hydrogen-hybrid aircraft concept

#88

Post by nickik »

dcustodio wrote: post #72
xoa wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes sense. I guess the questions would be whether the material science can really allow us to make use of that, and how the end-to-end efficiency weights against the infrastructure/engineering greenfield costs that synthetic fuels avoid. Being able to just keep using all existing engines/storage/distribution knowledge we already have is a major economic advantage. Electric will cover most land based transporta…

Don't forget that wind turbines still produce at night when there is less demand. So either you use that power to pump water upstream (if you have dams) or you can use it to produce Hydrogen.

Or you can put it into a battery.

Re: ZEROe: Hydrogen-hybrid aircraft concept

#89

Post by Qwertious »

largolagrande wrote: post #83

I recommend that you watch the "Planet of The Humans" documentary to understand why there is no cheap or green energy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk11vI-7czE

I recommend that you watch a real documentary, because that doc is filled to the brim with misleading BS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_of_the_Humans#Factual_a...

https://votetosurvive.org/skepticism-is-healthy-but-planet-o...

Re: ZEROe: Hydrogen-hybrid aircraft concept

#90

Post by nickik »

jakozaur wrote: post #76

Would not be easier to produce synthetic kerosene fuel from captured CO2 and hydrogen. The process is straightforward: 1. A lot of cheap solar energy, from the best location. 2. Electrolyse to produce hydrogen. 3. Capture CO2. Either from air or from carbon intensive processes (e.g. producing cement). 4. Use Sabatier reaction to bond CO2 and hydrogen to produce carbohydrate fuel. 5. Since we use same amount of CO2 to…

I think most non-intercontinental flight will go to battery. The operational cost is just unbeatable. All you need to do is mass produce batteries and because of car industry the amount of money going into this is insane.

Battery planes will eat the market from below, step by step.

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