ZEROe: Hydrogen-hybrid aircraft concept
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ZEROe: Hydrogen-hybrid aircraft concept
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Re: ZEROe: Hydrogen-hybrid aircraft concept
#2Interesting that this doesn't primarily use fuel cells[0] (which is what hydrogen-electric aviation usually proposes to use), but directly combusts the hydrogen to run a traditional jet engine. There was a Soviet Union airliner that did this, so it definitely works, although I'm skeptical that hydrogen makes sense as an aviation fuel because jet fuel is much more convenient (easier to transport, store, and handle, and cheaper).
[0]: It uses fuel cells too, but looks like most of the propulsion comes from the turbines.
Re: ZEROe: Hydrogen-hybrid aircraft concept
#3Interesting that this doesn't primarily use fuel cells[0] (which is what hydrogen-electric aviation usually proposes to use), but directly combusts the hydrogen to run a traditional jet engine. There was a Soviet Union airliner that did this, so it definitely works, although I'm skeptical that hydrogen makes sense as an aviation fuel because jet fuel is much more convenient (easier to transport, store, and handle, an…
Fuel cells are too heavy, at least for the time being. Other than biofuels or synfuels, there's basically no alternatives. Aviation companies will have to pick one of those fuels.
Re: ZEROe: Hydrogen-hybrid aircraft concept
#4I'll admit I really don't get the fascination with hydrogen as an energy storage medium. It has to be manufactured, so how green it is depends on whatever the power input is coming from. It's not any inherently greener then synthetic hydrocarbon production, which can be produced from atmospheric carbon for zero net carbon impact, and of course has no sulfur or aromatics. It also works fine with existing engineering. And hydrogen is an absolute total bitch to work with. It's got bad density, a really low/really high pressure liquidation point, escapes from everything, embrittles steel, and on and on. The infrastructure has no multiple use, unlike improvements to the grid.
So why not just do full manufacture of regular fuel? I've never understood where hydrogen fits between improving batteries/capacitors and synthetic hydrocarbons. It always seemed like an answer without a question outside of rockets (and even there the economics and practicalities of methalox may be better).
Re: ZEROe: Hydrogen-hybrid aircraft concept
#5I'll admit I really don't get the fascination with hydrogen as an energy storage medium. It has to be manufactured, so how green it is depends on whatever the power input is coming from. It's not any inherently greener then synthetic hydrocarbon production, which can be produced from atmospheric carbon for zero net carbon impact, and of course has no sulfur or aromatics. It also works fine with existing engineering.…
It sounds futuristic though and the exhaust is water!
Re: ZEROe: Hydrogen-hybrid aircraft concept
#6I'll admit I really don't get the fascination with hydrogen as an energy storage medium. It has to be manufactured, so how green it is depends on whatever the power input is coming from. It's not any inherently greener then synthetic hydrocarbon production, which can be produced from atmospheric carbon for zero net carbon impact, and of course has no sulfur or aromatics. It also works fine with existing engineering.…
An advantage of hydrogen is that it can be used in fuel cells, producing only water as reaction product. Using hydrocarbons of any sort in existing engines leads to the production of nitrogen oxides due to the presence of nitrogen in the air.
Re: ZEROe: Hydrogen-hybrid aircraft concept
#7I'll admit I really don't get the fascination with hydrogen as an energy storage medium. It has to be manufactured, so how green it is depends on whatever the power input is coming from. It's not any inherently greener then synthetic hydrocarbon production, which can be produced from atmospheric carbon for zero net carbon impact, and of course has no sulfur or aromatics. It also works fine with existing engineering.…
This is a simplification, think about this:
You can manufacture hydrogen anywhere as long as you have water, an electrolyzer, and a power source. Oil can only be pumped out of the ground in certain places, water is technically _much_ more abundant everywhere.
Hydrogen storage tech has improved in the last twenty years. It's becoming affordable and "as safe" to store hydrogen at fuel densities similar to that of petroleum based fuels.
Obviously the devil's in the details, but shouldn't we attempt to engineer huge carbon emitters like container shipping or aircraft to run on hydrogen + solar?
Re: ZEROe: Hydrogen-hybrid aircraft concept
#8I'll admit I really don't get the fascination with hydrogen as an energy storage medium. It has to be manufactured, so how green it is depends on whatever the power input is coming from. It's not any inherently greener then synthetic hydrocarbon production, which can be produced from atmospheric carbon for zero net carbon impact, and of course has no sulfur or aromatics. It also works fine with existing engineering.…
> It's not any inherently greener then synthetic hydrocarbon production, which can be produced from atmospheric carbon for zero net carbon impact
As I understand it, the production of complex hydrocarbons that can be used as a replacement for jet fuel is even more inefficient when compared to the production of hydrogen, as many of the known processes that start from CO2 actually use hydrogen in the process. So, although you could get energy-denser fuels, that would be at the cost of even more end-to-end efficiency.
Finally, hydrogen has a great energy / kg ratio, making it a very interesting fuel for aviation if the material science problems of hydrogen can be overcome, as it allows for longer distance flights / flights with more/heavier cargo.
Re: ZEROe: Hydrogen-hybrid aircraft concept
#9I'll admit I really don't get the fascination with hydrogen as an energy storage medium. It has to be manufactured, so how green it is depends on whatever the power input is coming from. It's not any inherently greener then synthetic hydrocarbon production, which can be produced from atmospheric carbon for zero net carbon impact, and of course has no sulfur or aromatics. It also works fine with existing engineering.…
> It's not any inherently greener then synthetic hydrocarbon production, which can be produced from atmospheric carbon for zero net carbon impact As I understand it, the production of complex hydrocarbons that can be used as a replacement for jet fuel is even more inefficient when compared to the production of hydrogen, as many of the known processes that start from CO2 actually use hydrogen in the process. So, altho…
That makes sense. I guess the questions would be whether the material science can really allow us to make use of that, and how the end-to-end efficiency weights against the infrastructure/engineering greenfield costs that synthetic fuels avoid. Being able to just keep using all existing engines/storage/distribution knowledge we already have is a major economic advantage. Electric will cover most land based transportation, and we need negative carbon technology anyway, so de novo hydrogen R&D has less to spread out across. If solar/nuclear becomes cheap enough, less efficient for more convenient might still be a worthwhile trade off. But I guess that's something for experts to crunch out. Thanks for the reply.
Re: ZEROe: Hydrogen-hybrid aircraft concept
#10I'll admit I really don't get the fascination with hydrogen as an energy storage medium. It has to be manufactured, so how green it is depends on whatever the power input is coming from. It's not any inherently greener then synthetic hydrocarbon production, which can be produced from atmospheric carbon for zero net carbon impact, and of course has no sulfur or aromatics. It also works fine with existing engineering.…
This is a simplification, think about this: You can manufacture hydrogen anywhere as long as you have water, an electrolyzer, and a power source. Oil can only be pumped out of the ground in certain places, water is technically _much_ more abundant everywhere. Hydrogen storage tech has improved in the last twenty years. It's becoming affordable and "as safe" to store hydrogen at fuel densities similar to that of petro…
>You can manufacture hydrogen anywhere as long as you have water, an electrolyzer, and a power source.
I don't understand what you're arguing with here? You can manufacture synthetic hydrocarbons anywhere so long as you have water, carbon dioxide, and a power source too. So I'm not sure why you see this as an advantage for hydrogen.
>but shouldn't we attempt to engineer huge carbon emitters like container shipping or aircraft to run on hydrogen + solar?
Again, why hydrogen from solar vs hydrocarbons from solar? From a global warming perspective what matters is net GHG.