How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes • Hacker News Board

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#161

Post by Razengan » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 1:06 PM UTC

smoe wrote: post #106

closeparen wrote: post #29

My life got a lot better after I stopped considering questions in terms of my own preferences and started considering them in terms of how they would connect me to others. I really don’t want to go out for drinks after work. But this preference is nothing compared to how much I value the friendships that come from doing it. Hiking a mountain is not in the top 100 things I want to do with my weekend. But a shared expe…

This is one of the main reasons why I prefer living in big cities. Compared to other places I've stayed, it makes it a whole lot easier to build and maintain human connections with people whose preferences and interests overlap with mine. I also do plenty of activities I'm not really interested in for the sake of socializing. But always just adopting to whatever is most popular at a given time would be soulcrushing t…

> This is one of the main reasons why I prefer living in big cities.

Big Cities also amplify loneliness and make it more crushing when you just keep getting lost in the crowd.

Concrete jungles with more traffic than trees are also a depressing drain upon the soul.

My ideal sweet spot is Small Towns near a Big City that you can dip into once every weekend or so.

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#162

Post by bumby » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 1:07 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #141

gjm11 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people our age So far as I can see, cheschire didn't say anything to indicate their age. Careful with those assumptions!

Assuming that youth and health are sovereign against bad COVID outcomes sure is an assumption, too.

Isn’t that a statistically valid assumption for reduced risk at the population level?

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#163

Post by jimbokun » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 1:13 PM UTC

ritchiea wrote: post #74

Natales wrote: post #34

No means a lot more than “no” most of the time. My mom was Jehovah’s Witness, so I was raised always to take care of “the appearances”, always being polite, even when you disagree. When I moved to the US back in 2000, I “discovered” people have freedom to think and say whatever they want (kind of) and it was OK to dissent. The pendulum went the other way, and I became a big fan of Bill Maher and the “it’s OK to be po…

What's wrong with being kind and speaking to people with respect while you disagree with them? One of the big problems with the "politically incorrect" or "radical free speech" crowd is that your words can hurt people's feeling. And your tone can hurt people's feelings. And there's no good reason to tell someone "fuck off" when you can politely say no other than maybe you have things you're angry about that you haven…

> One of the big problems with the "politically incorrect" or "radical free speech" crowd is that your words can hurt people's feeling. And your tone can hurt people's feelings.

Stating objective, empirical observations about the world can also hurt people's feelings.

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#164

Post by dougmwne » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 1:18 PM UTC

dannyw wrote: post #103

cheschire wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What has your recent experience been as these opportunities arise in the face of COVID? How does the potential for danger in even mundane social gatherings affect your decision now? In the last 18 months I came to the same conclusion as you and started socializing more, but then COVID happened and then quarantine and while the rest of my office rushes back to doing team lunches and whatnot, I find myself hesitating.…

I think you should consider the actual quantified risk to you and the community. For someone living alone for example and going to work drinks with 5 people, your risk of contracting COVID is very small. Your chance of developing serious complications from COVID is also very small. Your chance of spreading COVID to others, should you isolate once you develop symptoms, is also small. I highly recommend you research th…

And yet, 200k people in the US have died already, even with fairly extreme social distancing. Acceptable risks for the individual can translate into massive human tragedy. I have no expectation that Covid would be much more of a bad flu for me, and am not particularly worried for my own health. I socially distance for others: friends, family, and even people I don't know. Society cannot run on pure self-interest alone.

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#165

Post by torben-friis » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 1:20 PM UTC

ritchiea wrote: post #74

Natales wrote: post #34

No means a lot more than “no” most of the time. My mom was Jehovah’s Witness, so I was raised always to take care of “the appearances”, always being polite, even when you disagree. When I moved to the US back in 2000, I “discovered” people have freedom to think and say whatever they want (kind of) and it was OK to dissent. The pendulum went the other way, and I became a big fan of Bill Maher and the “it’s OK to be po…

What's wrong with being kind and speaking to people with respect while you disagree with them? One of the big problems with the "politically incorrect" or "radical free speech" crowd is that your words can hurt people's feeling. And your tone can hurt people's feelings. And there's no good reason to tell someone "fuck off" when you can politely say no other than maybe you have things you're angry about that you haven…

I think there's a middle point there.

For context, I'm from Spain (our society is somewhat confrontational, in the sense that people like to argue about petty things and banter, it's almost a way of making small talk here) and I've got a lot of American friends here, who in contrast tend to take the "politically correct/business nice" approach in their circles, even with friends.

There are ups and downs to each approach, and I don't think one is superior to the other, but in my personal experience my american friends tend to be a little insecure about their relationships and not bond as much, because they can never be fully sure of whether they're welcome or just tolerated - if everything's a smile, it's harder to tell a genuine gesture from an act of politeness.

I have a pet theory that introverted/asocial people tend to like the blunt approach and the politically incorrect crowd better because it's easier to tell where you stand, which might be great if you're not good at reading people and navigating social customs. Extroverted, more social people have a more developed sense to understand those subtleties and never feel as lost/insecure, so they don't see the upside of bluntness.

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#166

Post by csharptwdec19 » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 1:25 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #115

cutemonster wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you find out? What happened after that? I think somehow somewhere there're real friends for you to find. Possibly simpler to find if you do new unusual things you didn't try before? Or maybe try a different city or country (if work allows)

> How did you find out? Nothing overly dramatic happened. Basically people dropped out of my life whenever small change happened, because while I was pleasant to be around, I was not worth any additional effort no matter how tiny. And I realized that I am never getting my preference. When I asked for my needs or wants, I never got it and people around me disproportionally did not liked it. They liked "yes" me, but as…

You and I are in similar spots.

I was in a relationship where the other party was only happy if I was passive or a doormat.

It's a bad thing to get into, because you come out the other end forgetting parts of the 'real' you if you do it too long

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#167

Post by mistersquid » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 1:31 PM UTC

darkerside wrote: post #155

watwut wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont think it is entirely true. I have many times seen people argue that something like offence does not exist. Or that "hurt feelings" are basically your own fault. Or that put downs or insults are all just about your own weak feelings. Including on HN.

Well, it is true that you are responsible for the way that you feel, and you can choose not only how to externally react to what people to say, but even teach yourself to internally process those messages as constructively as you want to. The most powerful thing about words is the power the listener gives them. I hope I've successfully fallen between the cracks of the perspective you outlined.

> The most powerful thing about words is the power the listener gives them.

Human beings are neurologically wired to biologically respond to communication from other beings. A classic example is nursing women who express milk when hearing a baby cry.

There are many other examples of involuntary responses to environmental stimulus, much of which include human communication. Loud noises cause involuntarily muscular response, sexual display increases heart rates, threatening behavior (including language) floods the bloodstream with cortisol.

In other words, we may (if we're lucky) modulate our actions in response to what people say to us but there is much evidence to suggest we have little to no control over the feelings that words may elicit.

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#168

Post by elboru » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 1:32 PM UTC

qz2 wrote: post #44

thelightthat wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Could you give an example of rephrasing and being tricky/evasive?

My wife is a fine example: Problem: coffee machine not working. Her representation of the problem: we need to buy a new coffee machine. Really what’s going on: coffee machine needs cleaning properly but it doesn’t match the rest of the stuff in the kitchen now. Edit: I'm sure this analogy probably works better for the folk downvoting when you look at it in terms of computation. Perhaps I should have write "the develo…

It seems like communication is missing in both cases. It is easy to try to guess the other’s person motivations, but it’s actually hard to be 100% correct, and even if we’re 100% correct, who says our motivation is more valid than the other’s person? sure sometimes our motivation is objectively better, but the other person won’t agree without communication.

Probably after reading “No More Mr Nice Guy” everyone should read “How to Win Friends and Influence People”

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#169

Post by watwut » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 1:34 PM UTC

darkerside wrote: post #155

watwut wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont think it is entirely true. I have many times seen people argue that something like offence does not exist. Or that "hurt feelings" are basically your own fault. Or that put downs or insults are all just about your own weak feelings. Including on HN.

Well, it is true that you are responsible for the way that you feel, and you can choose not only how to externally react to what people to say, but even teach yourself to internally process those messages as constructively as you want to. The most powerful thing about words is the power the listener gives them. I hope I've successfully fallen between the cracks of the perspective you outlined.

The said words affect everyone in the room. When someone is offending you and you don't respond, it pretty often affects how other respond to you too.

> even teach yourself to internally process those messages as constructively

No, you need to teach yourself to respond to them. And for that you need to stop pretending they do no harm. And stop blaming yourself for feeling bad after someone insulted you. Really, when someone insults you, feeling hurt is normal human reaction. Not "your responsibility to constructively respond" or to teach yourself to stop feeling.

That is just being doormat and doormats gets bullied. That is how women in 1950 were taught to act while males responded to insults. Males were the ones who had respect.

Re: How to say no, for the people pleaser who always says yes

#170

Post by Loughla » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 1:35 PM UTC

apples_oranges wrote: post #61

closeparen wrote: post #29

My life got a lot better after I stopped considering questions in terms of my own preferences and started considering them in terms of how they would connect me to others. I really don’t want to go out for drinks after work. But this preference is nothing compared to how much I value the friendships that come from doing it. Hiking a mountain is not in the top 100 things I want to do with my weekend. But a shared expe…

Great comment. I would add that this ties in with goal setting, which is an activity where you set the priorities for your life. If it's fitness for example you will skip the drinks and go to the gym instead. If it's money you will work on your business and so forth. You decided it's social connections, but it will be different for everyone. It's important to sit down and decide what we want out of life, imho.

>It's important to sit down and decide what we want out of life

I always get my hair up with this kind of statement. How do your goals look? Because the only goals I have are: a) not be homeless, b) not have my family die, and c) figure out how to have someone give me ten million dollars so I can stop coming to work.

People who have specific, 'work-ish' goals in their personal lives sort of weird me out. I don't know why.

Something, something Maugham's The Razor's Edge.