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Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

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Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#591
post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My brother living in his hamlet has no electricity after 8pm, has 0 access to coaching and has little to no access to books or anything related. This is circa 2000s though. The village has affluent upper caste people while the lower caste people still do menial jobs Reservations are meant for them. But the city folk who have the most knowledge and access to money abuse this system while real poor lower class people a…

>>I knew of an economically backward class person who wore woodlnd shoes. My parents couldn't afford those shoes, his did yet he had woodland shoes. Woodland shoes last years, in most cases the only reason you thrown them away because you are bored, they refuse to wear out no matter what you do with them. I come from a fairly lower-middle class, poor background(Dad was a truck/bus/cab driver over years). I was donate…

Well, poor people who have to choose between Food and Rent i.e. really economically backwards can't afford woodland shoes and a new fancy phone every other month!

Alao for that matter, Sparkx sandals and shoes too last years, much cheaper option..

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#592
post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The problem is that a caste-based reservation did NOT eliminate caste-based bias. It is not the goal of the reservation system to eliminate caste-based bias. The goal is to eliminate unfair competition by ensuring candidates of equal backgrounds compete with each other. A low caste candidate who was historically denied education can not compete with a higher caste student from an educated family. Hence the candida…

> A poor family can become rich but a low caste person can never become a upper caste as the caste is decided on birth. It is not sound to say a person from a caste who was oppressed for thousands of years should not be given reservation because they become rich in the last generation. I appreciate your comment and you do make some very interesting points. But the above quote seems to contradict the gist of your earl…

> Also, there is an implied assumption that every upper-caste, richer or poorer has a strong educational background.

That assumption is valid, owing to the traditional jobs that were assigned to each group. Out of the five classes Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, Shudras and Dalits, the last to were physical laborers doing menial jobs.[1] The first three traditionally had access to knowledge and power due to their professions. Brahmin's duty was to read, memorize, recite and teach religious scriptures. Kshatriyas were rulers and administrators and thus powerful. Vaishyas were merchants, business people and large land owners who had access to both knowledge and power. Shudras and Dalits never had the opportunity to get educated and were also systematically denied status and opportunity by repressive religious laws and social norms. Caste being assigned on birth, there was no way for upward mobility.

Before the reservation system, jobs such as bureaucrats, judges, teachers, academics, knowledge workers etc were all occupied by the top three groups, and it is easy to understand why. Whereas Shudras and Dalits were left behind, uneducated and doing low level jobs.

> The background of a lower-caste but educated and affluent family is no longer the same as that of a poorer lower-caste person from relatively uneducated family.

The existing creamy layer rules ensures that the wealthy individuals do not get reservation, even though they are from low caste. This is not a reason to suggest the entire reservation criteria should be based on economic status instead of caste.

1. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-35650616

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True story. I met this Indian woman while working out of the local hipster cafe. We had mutual friends. And ended up going out for lunch. On the way back, she started asking questions about my background. They grew intensely personal. Until she was interrogating me on the sidewalk. Unsatisfied with my responses, she just gave up and cut to the chase, "What's your mother's caste?" Thanks to fairly unique circumstances…

I'm an Indian diaspora person with no cultural connection to India. When I travel, I'm often accosted by Indian (nationality) people who immediately begin 20 questions about my background, religion, caste, language, where my grandparents are from, et cetera. One occurrence that sticks in my mind is being in a building lobby in Almaty, Kazakhstan and having two Indians see me from across the street, immediately cross…

> Mostly I find this amusing and chalk it up to cultural differences. But I can't help but conclude that Indians are almost obsessed with "placing" each Indian-appearing person they mert based on their ancestry, and find it hard to move past this.

I feel your chagrin. I would be the first to admit to my privilege that my skin affords me. When I travel, I'm not mistaken for Indian and that leads to some very strange encounters.

True story, I'm standing tired and defeated in front of a border agent in a well-developed SE-Asian country. The border agent looks at my passport. Looks at my face. Looks at the passport again. And says, "Hold on. You're an Indian citizen?? But you're so white and polite!" and proceeds to tell me about how bad her night has been.

That is privilege. I was afforded the benefit of the doubt and allowed to carry on.

In India, I have never been stopped by the cops on the street. As India slides into fascism, I've oft expressed my fears to my lawyer and he's said - "Don't worry! No policeman is ever going to bother you, you're so pale and fancy and have a lawyer. He'd be scared of losing his job"

I am fortunate that I do not fear persecution when I walk down the streets. At the very least, not beyond the usual stalking and staring and ever present harassment.

In a time distant enough to be my past, I took the apartment complex's staff out for ice cream, and I saw them rush about for ID just in case someone asked. And I asked them if that was a regular thing. And they said yes, it happened to them almost every time they were out. But it had never happened to me. In an ID-obsessed country, other than for paperwork, no cop had ever stopped me on the street and asked me for my ID.

I met up with some black travellers once, and they did not share my experience. They had to carry ID with them all the time. And this was in Asia. Even miles away from American shores, they were still afraid of the police.

It is lonely. It is suffocating. It is depressing to live the life I lead. It's a society where I cannot socialize, where I cannot find nor keep gainful employment no matter what I may offer, where life moves past me at rates that are hard to understand, where I live in fear of them. A stranger, a minority, living in a strange land.

And yet, I'm privileged. It could be worse. It could always be worse.

Some day,

  Let the Priests of the Raven of dawn, no longer in deadly black, 
with hoarse note curse the sons of joy. Nor his accepted brethren

whom, tyrant, he calls free; lay the bound or build the roof

Nor pale religious letchery call that virginity, that

wishes but acts not!

  For every thing that lives is Holy

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#594
post #290
post #214

ITT: (Possibly) "Upper caste" Indians claiming: 1. This is due to a few bad apples 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) 3. I don't do it therefore it doesn't exist I can tell you by experience the amount of concious and unconcious bias regarding caste amongst Indians both in India and abroad is ridiculous! I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" and speak with me as such. My last name doesn't…

I don’t have any expertise here, but “no it’s not” is not an argument, regardless of how loud you say it.

The same could be said about your comment.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#595
post #122
post #5

> It may seem bizarre that the caste system, a centuries-old system that organises and stratifies human society, continues to play a heavy role in deciding which Indians prosper and which don't within a space many consider to be an uber-meritocracy -- the US tech landscape. Well for I'm not surprised, and further I doubt anybody in it considers it an "uber-meritocracy", it really is much more perverse.

Yeah, that the tech industry is a meritocracy is a myth that's popular with the white educated middle-class men who like to believe they have more merit than other groups. (I'm a white educated middle-class man myself, and a career in the tech world has been easy and natural for me. I'd love to believe it's because I'm really that good, but I try to be aware of my privilege.)

> Yeah, that the tech industry is a meritocracy is a myth that's popular with the white educated middle-class men who like to believe they have more merit than other groups.

Dunno about all of that ... I myself am not sufficently race obsessed I guess. What I meant was that in most cases people get ahead for reasons that have little to nothing to do with merit, and in my experience also that have little to nothing to do with race.

Maybe if you find yourself constantly surrounded by racists you should evaluate how your choices contribute to this. I don't have this experience.

And I'm pretty sure there would be some legal implications for what you claim, so if you are aware of this and not reporting it I'm pretty sure you face potential legal liabilities.

I think it is pretty disgusting that people just look the other way while they witness racism. If I ever saw anything at my place of work that would suggest any racism in hiring choices the person would not make it to the end of the day.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#596
post #469
post #214

ITT: (Possibly) "Upper caste" Indians claiming: 1. This is due to a few bad apples 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) 3. I don't do it therefore it doesn't exist I can tell you by experience the amount of concious and unconcious bias regarding caste amongst Indians both in India and abroad is ridiculous! I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" and speak with me as such. My last name doesn't…

> 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) Of course Reservation IS the problem if you're unfortunate to be an upper caste. The problem is that a caste-based reservation did NOT eliminate caste-based bias, it amplified it. More and more castes, outside the original designation, demanded it in exchange for votes, and more and more upper caste Indians felt cheated as they lost limited opportunities that should…

> The problem is that a caste-based reservation did NOT eliminate caste-based bias, it amplified it.

Would love a believable citation (which means not from standard rightwing mouthpieces).

I can believe that it did not eliminate it. That's a tall task that will take time.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but caste is associated with education. And the current generation of the upper caste is succeeding because they are more educated than the rest and come from more educated families. Which I would say is a huge privilege given that a large majority of the country can't even read and write.

They are succeeding because the historical cultural norms keep the "competition" down, and because they have money. Everything else is a consequence, not a cause. Take 2 equally educated people from high and low castes and see how they behave next to each other and how they're treated doing the same jobs. One will be treated like a "natural born leader", the other like a "born to be a slave". That's because as much e…

> When the other person is just as educated, or smart, or capable, or sometimes they may be even better, you pull out this card which is by definition impossible to fight. You can't reasonably change them. So some people will keep working to make these still "a thing", something they can always use to get an edge they don't deserve.

This could also be a 100% accurate description of affirmative action.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#598
post #92

The lack of self awareness amongst upper caste Indians in India and abroad is interesting to witness. They often think of themselves as having come from humble backgrounds and 'made it' in society all on their own. Not realizing that the vast majority of Indians in India live in abject poverty without any meaningful access to basic education and other amenities. Upper caste Indians are more likely to have access to b…

> The lack of self awareness... They often think of themselves as having come from humble backgrounds and 'made it' in society all on their own... live in their own bubble not even realizing the privilege they are born with. So... pretty much like most Americans in similar situation, then?

> So... pretty much like most Americans in similar situation, then?

Does that include almost all Americans, regardless of race? Because compared to most of the rest of the world, we're obviously and measurably privileged wrt materials assets, regardless of race[1].

1. With respect to material assets. With respect to other assets (spiritual, social, etc), I would argue that we Americans are often in the lower tiers.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#599
post #469
post #214

ITT: (Possibly) "Upper caste" Indians claiming: 1. This is due to a few bad apples 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) 3. I don't do it therefore it doesn't exist I can tell you by experience the amount of concious and unconcious bias regarding caste amongst Indians both in India and abroad is ridiculous! I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" and speak with me as such. My last name doesn't…

> 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) Of course Reservation IS the problem if you're unfortunate to be an upper caste. The problem is that a caste-based reservation did NOT eliminate caste-based bias, it amplified it. More and more castes, outside the original designation, demanded it in exchange for votes, and more and more upper caste Indians felt cheated as they lost limited opportunities that should…

This article by Yashica Dutt is very relevant in this conversation:

Does upper caste society acknowledge the private reservations it has had for years?

https://scroll.in/article/951818/does-upper-caste-society-ac...

As a person from an upper caste background may I ask you why you think the criteria for reservation should be economic when the bias is because of caste?

I know multiple friends of mine who have suffered innumerable abuse and indignities because of their caste and irrespective of their educational qualifications.

Ambedkar - the chap who wrote the constitution, was ill treated even after his Columbia degree and his PhD. Customers refused to sign him on and colleagues refused to even share the same room with him when he taught as a professor.

It is sad that even in this time and day when we see so much caste oppression the upper castes still continue to refuse to admit it.

By the way, I have never benefited from any reservation of any kind.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#600
As someone who has worked in the US and in other parts of the world, I have witnessed first hand the regressive attitude of many upper caste Indians towards others from lower castes - even their colleagues in the US and Europe.

It is shameful that in this time and age such attitudes continue to exist.

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